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Thread: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet Elvis View Post
    Granted, that's pants-on-head stupid, but yeah...why weren't there two or three tasers taking this jackhole down, just feet from the entrance? They still let him through to the office.
    There is a reason. Unless you sit there and treat every person entering the school as an armed shooting suspect, including the kids and teachers who are supposed to be there, security at the front door is pretty much useless. You are talking about stopping dedicated suicidal heavily armed shooters. Anyone like that is going to draw and shoot your guards long before they have a chance to ready their weapons if they are not prepared first. Guards at the front door are there to stop smuggled contraband and perhaps some kid bringing a gun to school for the purpose of impressing their friends, but any person who wants to kill off anyone in the school will just draw and shoot the guards first. This father did prove the point when he said bang you are dead. Had he had a gun and was going to shoot he is absolutely right the guards would be dead. It is the same reason why malls are able to be shot up despite guards almost always being present there, and even police officers being present at malls. It is the same reason why clerks with guns really only stop suspects who are not ready to shoot up the place with their guns. It is the main reason why the NRA's plan is a joke meant to sell more guns.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    It sounds like the greeter was either a volunteer or a staff member who was greeting and not in any way acting as a security guard. For all we know it was a student's grandmother, so I can't say I'm surprised that the greeter froze. But the office with several people in it should have been able to handle a guy who wasn't holding a weapon.
    Again, he is still correct. unless the security guard is prepared with their gun drawn he would shoot them before they could react. I don't know what you people think a security guard is, but they are certainly not quick draw experts ready at the fraction of a second it takes for a shooter to blow them away. Even police officers are rarely that prepared which is why they often get shot when a person who wants to kill confronts them from a position of peace. Do you really want guards with their guns drawn looking over every elementary school kid? Guards are not well trained professionals, they are people who were lucky to get a job that doesn't involve saying "do you want furries with that." That should be fries not furries.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    There is a reason. Unless you sit there and treat every person entering the school as an armed shooting suspect, including the kids and teachers who are supposed to be there, security at the front door is pretty much useless. You are talking about stopping dedicated suicidal heavily armed shooters. Anyone like that is going to draw and shoot your guards long before they have a chance to ready their weapons if they are not prepared first. Guards at the front door are there to stop smuggled contraband and perhaps some kid bringing a gun to school for the purpose of impressing their friends, but any person who wants to kill off anyone in the school will just draw and shoot the guards first. This father did prove the point when he said bang you are dead. Had he had a gun and was going to shoot he is absolutely right the guards would be dead. It is the same reason why malls are able to be shot up despite guards almost always being present there, and even police officers being present at malls. It is the same reason why clerks with guns really only stop suspects who are not ready to shoot up the place with their guns. It is the main reason why the NRA's plan is a joke meant to sell more guns.
    In part I agree. First and foremost, the dad in the OP is a dumber than hammered ****. What was the system he was testing? There's little likelihood he knew the actual security protocol and procedure for the school. Granted it didn't seem to work, whatever it was. But the last thing the school needs is a bunch of dickwits running around acting like the idiot did in the OP.

    We agree that very few schools are or will be hardened to the point that they will be completely safe for students and staff. Few people would want the inconvenience of that kind of system, even if they could afford it in their child's district. And anyway, they can't afford it.

    I'd put money on the same dad not knowing jack about the school's violence prevention programs, and counseling programs, and anti-bullying programs. My money says the dumbass has no idea if those programs satisfactory or what more might be required. Also, I wonder if the dad is up on relevant statistical data or if he advocates and supports critical social programs and mental health support for families. That's if he is even aware of what might be available and what needs to be available.

    Some of the nation is in media directed knee-jerk mode, and they aren't really thinking. They are reacting and sadly that is what the results will eventually look like at the local school levels.










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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    I dont know how things work across the country but in my schoold district here in PA and every neighboring one ive been too working with youths and the schools this guy never gets in unless he breaks in.

    ALL my schools have locked doors and a buzzer system or a greeter behind the locked doors with a intercom.

    So he would have to actually wait to be let in before he said im a shooter or anything like that.

    BUT i do admit specially at my high school, maybe they just buzz ME in cause they know me which is still not cool but there they just have a camera there on you, say hello, ask you your business and buzz. And they door ou have to go to is BY the office but not in it, it goes into the main hallway and you must choose to NOT run up the stairs to the second floor of the school to even pass the office. I have mentioned this actually but no one seems to care.

    My school also DOES have an armed guard though, not sure why he isnt in control of the buzzer and isnt placed at the door, he "rovers" the building. I think the better set up is stay at the door and respond to trouble inside when needed. Have others rover the building.
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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    You mean a good, devout Muslim can't pray for a safe trip?
    If that devout Muslin has any common sense he will know that Allah has very good hearing and there would be no need to shout it.

    If that devout Muslin has any common sense he knows he would likely have someone in his face.

    Anyway he has much a right to shout his prayer as I do to shout in has face to STFU.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    I'd put money on the same dad not knowing jack about the school's violence prevention programs, and counseling programs, and anti-bullying programs. My money says the dumbass has no idea if those programs satisfactory or what more might be required. Also, I wonder if the dad is up on relevant statistical data or if he advocates and supports critical social programs and mental health support for families. That's if he is even aware of what might be available and what needs to be available.
    Oh, you know he is probably the first one to spearhead a school bond with increase real estate tax to pay for armed guards.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    I dont know how things work across the country but in my schoold district here in PA and every neighboring one ive been too working with youths and the schools this guy never gets in unless he breaks in.

    ALL my schools have locked doors and a buzzer system or a greeter behind the locked doors with a intercom.
    Most of the schools I have seen do not have these systems already. In a country where a large percentage of the people want to cut school funding making all schools that secure costs money. Money very few places have, and very few people want to pay. Also, those electromagnetic locks are not all built the same. Yes, a single person yanking on them can break open some of them. I know, i have seen it in person. Then on top of that it is great to have the door locked, but if you can easily break in elsewhere that system is pointless. Finally you have to hope the lowest bidder is smart enough to have those locks de-activate in case of an emergency like a fire, or to allow kids to get out if the school is under attack which then opens the doors so attackers can get in. Again, that system is designed to keep certain types of criminals, like drug dealers, out of the school, but are ineffective vs a dedicated assault.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    So he would have to actually wait to be let in before he said im a shooter or anything like that.
    Coming up with yet another flaw in that plan. Schools are place where you want to let people in. They are not secure areas where the purpose is to keep most people out. Every day a school may have hundreds or more students who have to pass in and out for their daily lessons. The more you restrict access the more time you take from their schoolday, and the more you bottleneck those students outside where there is no security stopping some guy from driving up and mowing down all those students waiting to get in. Also, many schools have things like gym class and recess where students have an open door to go in and out. All of this really reduces any buzzer system.

    on top of that if you really want to prevent contraband like guns entering schools you have to do something more like the TSA has. Now you have some minimum wage slob frisking, wanding, and asking the kids with purty mouths to go into the back room for a strip search. Really, to effectively keep schools free of things like guns and knives you would have to implement a security system much like that seen in low security jails. This involves guards everywhere and security checks every time a kid goes in or out, much like how they do it in jails where cons are often used in DOT work and grounds work. This is because kids will be much like cons in trying to get contraband into schools. This is mainly just the nature of kids in that they like to do things that they are told not to. Go research jails. Despite strip searches, wanding, metal detectors, and guards watching their every move they still get weapons, cell phones, drugs, and all sorts of other things into those places. Those inmates don't go home every night to load up for tomorrow. In the end you local jail is not terribly secure against someone breaking in. If you wanted to shoot up a jail, not a prison, it would be easy to get in and shoot a few people as long as you did not have a concern for getting out alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    BUT i do admit specially at my high school, maybe they just buzz ME in cause they know me which is still not cool but there they just have a camera there on you, say hello, ask you your business and buzz. And they door ou have to go to is BY the office but not in it, it goes into the main hallway and you must choose to NOT run up the stairs to the second floor of the school to even pass the office. I have mentioned this actually but no one seems to care.
    that is because they have other concerns. Cameras are not effective vs a person who doesn't care about escape or getting identified after the fact. To lock down our schools and keep people from wandering negates a big purpose of allowing the children to roam from class to class. If you cannot do it easy, the kids cannot do it easy. That and the cost of modifying the building and getting security guards is a huge reason why it will never be done. If it is ever done it will be a half assed job that will be of little to no effect on dedicated assaults. It will cost money, and the next shooter will have no real problem getting around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    My school also DOES have an armed guard though, not sure why he isnt in control of the buzzer and isnt placed at the door, he "rovers" the building. I think the better set up is stay at the door and respond to trouble inside when needed. Have others rover the building.
    yeah, i know armed guards. Unless those guards are working for something ike the bank and guarding money they are poorly paid, poorly educated, dimwits with no training. The only thing an armed guard is going to do is run his ass off for a half mile until he collapses and then maybe he will call 911. if you are lucky he doesn't fire blindly into the school and hit a kid.

    these solutions are just simply not effective for much in regards to an armed assault. They have a purpose, and that is to do their best to prevent drugs and dealers from getting into the schools, and they don't do a great job at that. Really, with modern schools being forced to accept off the wall violent students with so called mental problems you really do not want to put some halfwit with a gun around them.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Perhaps they were not surprised by this mans behavior? Most likely if he felt that what he was doing was a good idea he probable has already been vocal with the school staff. If they observed that he was not a real threat then the best move was to let him leave then report the incident to the police.

    They probably just said yea right dude, yep see you tomorrow. Then called the cops.

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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    1.)Most of the schools I have seen do not have these systems already. In a country where a large percentage of the people want to cut school funding making all schools that secure costs money. Money very few places have, and very few people want to pay. Also, those electromagnetic locks are not all built the same. Yes, a single person yanking on them can break open some of them. I know, i have seen it in person. Then on top of that it is great to have the door locked, but if you can easily break in elsewhere that system is pointless. Finally you have to hope the lowest bidder is smart enough to have those locks de-activate in case of an emergency like a fire, or to allow kids to get out if the school is under attack which then opens the doors so attackers can get in. Again, that system is designed to keep certain types of criminals, like drug dealers, out of the school, but are ineffective vs a dedicated assault.




    2.)Coming up with yet another flaw in that plan. Schools are place where you want to let people in. They are not secure areas where the purpose is to keep most people out. Every day a school may have hundreds or more students who have to pass in and out for their daily lessons. The more you restrict access the more time you take from their schoolday, and the more you bottleneck those students outside where there is no security stopping some guy from driving up and mowing down all those students waiting to get in. Also, many schools have things like gym class and recess where students have an open door to go in and out. All of this really reduces any buzzer system.

    3.)on top of that if you really want to prevent contraband like guns entering schools you have to do something more like the TSA has. Now you have some minimum wage slob frisking, wanding, and asking the kids with purty mouths to go into the back room for a strip search. Really, to effectively keep schools free of things like guns and knives you would have to implement a security system much like that seen in low security jails. This involves guards everywhere and security checks every time a kid goes in or out, much like how they do it in jails where cons are often used in DOT work and grounds work. This is because kids will be much like cons in trying to get contraband into schools. This is mainly just the nature of kids in that they like to do things that they are told not to. Go research jails. Despite strip searches, wanding, metal detectors, and guards watching their every move they still get weapons, cell phones, drugs, and all sorts of other things into those places. Those inmates don't go home every night to load up for tomorrow. In the end you local jail is not terribly secure against someone breaking in. If you wanted to shoot up a jail, not a prison, it would be easy to get in and shoot a few people as long as you did not have a concern for getting out alive.


    4.)that is because they have other concerns. Cameras are not effective vs a person who doesn't care about escape or getting identified after the fact.

    5.)To lock down our schools and keep people from wandering negates a big purpose of allowing the children to roam from class to class. If you cannot do it easy, the kids cannot do it easy. That and the cost of modifying the building and getting security guards is a huge reason why it will never be done. If it is ever done it will be a half assed job that will be of little to no effect on dedicated assaults. It will cost money, and the next shooter will have no real problem getting around it.


    6.)yeah, i know armed guards. Unless those guards are working for something ike the bank and guarding money they are poorly paid, poorly educated, dimwits with no training. The only thing an armed guard is going to do is run his ass off for a half mile until he collapses and then maybe he will call 911. if you are lucky he doesn't fire blindly into the school and hit a kid.

    7.)these solutions are just simply not effective for much in regards to an armed assault. They have a purpose, and that is to do their best to prevent drugs and dealers from getting into the schools, and they don't do a great job at that. Really, with modern schools being forced to accept off the wall violent students with so called mental problems you really do not want to put some halfwit with a gun around them.
    1.) one door buzzer and having the other doors locked is very cheap, not sure what type of system you are referring too. The doors in my schools are always open from the inside, just not the out.

    but i do agree 100% with you about a dedicated assault, again only going by my area but alot of the doors are mostly glass so if planned well enough yes a dedicated attacker gets in anyway.

    2.) i disagree 100% no, they are not. Again not in my area where schools are in doors, gym again that is outside we exit through the gym doors and need one of the 3 gym teachers to lets us in. Also at my highchool where the doors are a driver cant drive up to, they could however find a way into the stadium and snipe people but again this is about getting in the school somethings are rational somethings not. If all school districts had the money i have no issues with them being gated

    3.) a lot of schools have this and it doesnt bother me at all but again i definitely understand why all schools cant do this over night.
    Not sure why you focus so much on contraband as i never mentioned it. If you are simply pointing out that students still have a lot of potential to get by these systems then i agree not sure what that has to do with anything i said since we are talking about outsiders entering the building unchecked or freely.

    4.) well thats a problem

    5.) totally disagree since in my school system it is easy, the building being locked down has about a zero effect, no in other schools this might be an issue, not mine.

    But i do agree again someone motivated could still get in my school

    6.) at this point im not even sure you are talking TOO me or just talking in general because a lot of this stuff has nothing to do with my post or my school. Seems you are doing a lot of guessing and arguing against secenrios that you are making up in your head. Now with that said im NOT saying they arent real some where they probably are 100% real but they are NOT blanket statements/truths and are not how it is here

    anyway the guard or guards at my school have always been either active or retired local police officers


    7.) again while i agree that at my school two people dedicated and not afraid to die could still get in the school but that by no means is a reason to not do the steps they already do and more steps.

    are you under the impression that i think the things at my school were a fix-all because i never indicated such, i only stated that this dad would have never got in but there are known weakness that i see that people could use to get in.

    Seems your post was all over the place. But i did agree with some of it none the less
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    Re: Dad poses as gunman to test school security, gets arrested

    The reality is that no matter what is done in the end if someone is determined they will be able to enter a school. But then there isnt even a need to enter school, all one would need to do is find a good vantage point and a high powered rifle with a scope. The shooter could be on adjacent property or just stop in the street and start shooting.

    Of course its a good idea to make schools more secure but there is a limit in what can be done to schools. No security in any school no matter how outlandishly paranoid could stop multiple gunmen with military training. I would imagine that real terrorists are noticing that America is full of soft targets. One vehicle with a bomb could be driven into a building like a school and kill most if not everyone there. All it takes is one person to do that and no guns at all.

    At the Columbine tragedy those idiots had failed to explode a propane tank. In Norway the psycho that by himself killed 77 people in one day used a bomb to start with. And look at the Oklahoma bombing. These people cannot be stopped unless the country was in lock down 24/7 and no one had any rights. Sure some can be found and stopped but not all its impossible no matter how many types of firearms the country bans.

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