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Thread: NZ tops global human freedom list

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Well, I guess at some point I was bound to run into someone. You're literally the first person I've ever even heard of who hasn't had a bad experience immigrating to NZ. Even people I know who like it there and want to stay permanently have had nothing positive to say about that aspect of it. I certainly don't.
    Really, everyone I know have had a good experience immigrating to NZ and that includes Asians. Most Asians I have talked to are happy they are in New Zealand and don't want to move back. Of course they call themselves kiwis.

    They think I am crazy to go to China.

    Are you familiar with the culture in a lot of the countries these Asians are coming from? Of course they don't say anything about it. But I've seen enough really over-the-top examples that no amount of silence from them can convince me it just "isn't happening." I also wonder where you're staying. The only place I can think of where you might not experience it is possibly Auckland, the biggest and thus most culturally generic city in NZ. But even her next biggest sibling, Wellington, is pretty bad for it in my experience.
    I stay in Auckland of course. Auckland is the biggest and most conservative city in New Zealand, pluss it got good weather. However, I have met people from/in Christchurch, Wellington, Hamilton, Tauranga, Dunedin, etc. You wouldn't like Auckland either if you don't like Wellington. Wellington is the most progressive city in New Zealand and not very racist. You will find racists people in Auckland too. I have met people who don't like Maories or Asians and I also met a gay black guy who got annoyed because I dated outside my race, but they are just some individuals.

    There are Asians who don't like white people in China too, but why should I care?

    I really don't care about cultural diversity, and I think that is your problem. You care too much. Kiwis are laid back, they generally don't care about progressive issues. They don't care if a few people are racist, just ignore them. They normally don't care about politics at all. They don't like people who get angry about small insignificant issues and they certainly don't like people who dislike their country. If you want to have fun in New Zealand, invite kiwies over for BBQ and stop talkng politics.

    A lot of liberals came to New Zealand thinking it would be a green, progressive paradise. It isn't. And it's not even that rich due to its location and history. They should have checked the economic freedom rankings and GDP per capita (PPP) and got a clue.
    Last edited by Camlon; 01-13-13 at 10:27 PM.

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    FreeNZ.ORG

    Democracy

    Democracy, whether it is direct or representative is a failure. Always has been and always will be, for one simple reason...it is unrestrained.
    What the majority decides today becomes law tomorrow...until the next majority takes it away or amends it the day after. Legislations are driven by emotions rather than logic and he who controls the information flow (government education and mainstream media), controls the emotions. In a democracy the emotionally charged citizens will demand “justice” by punishing the criminal, which is fair, but then take it a step further by punishing the freedom (through legislation) that the criminal abused to commit the crime.

    As Benedict LaRosa wrote in Democracy or Republic, Which is it? You punish the abuser of the freedom, not the freedom itself.

    There are no rights in a democracy, only privileges. Privileges that can be taken away by 51% of the eligible voters in a direct democracy or 51% of the elected politicians in a representative democracy. In our case here in New Zealand, 62 of the 122 parliamentarians are all that is required for Bills to pass into law.

    When the citizens demand a Binding Referendum, they are in fact asking the government to grant them the privilege of voting directly on various issues. This is direct democracy. The very first democracy was the Athenian direct democracy which failed miserably and never tried again for thousands of years! Many argue that direct democracy would be much more efficient with modern technology, but that simply ignores the absurd notion that the majority of one select group, can collectively impose their private law on those who disagree. Nothing is binding in a democracy because there are no rights, only privileges. If the will of the majority wants a binding referendum then it becomes law until the next majority repeals it, in which case it was never binding in the first place. This is the nature of democracy, unrestrained.

    How is it fair that 122 politicians whose votes are influenced by various special interest groups can make their private law public law, forcing 4 ¾ Million kiwis to comply, including every kiwi born after the vote?

    As kiwis we are encouraged to vote in the general election. One day in every 1095 days the citizens exercise their democratic right to vote for who gets to exercise their democratic right to vote for the next 1094 days!

    For the 3 years between elections the citizens complain about lack of representation and the need to be heard. Citizens resort to polls with overwhelming majorities against the Auckland Supercity, against the Anti Smacking Bill and for Binding Referendums...yet the 122 politicians in parliament ignores these polls. Is this not prima facia evidence that the elected representatives are actually representing someone else’s interests?

    Because it is unrestrained, anything goes. Bills are passed all day everyday, eventually so many laws are created that we all become criminals even though our behaviour hasn't changed from one day to the next.

    However when it suits the agenda of control, the politicians will jump to the aid of any grieving victim who is calling for more restrictive laws. No law will return their loved ones but the new restrictive laws will only serve to help the healing of the victim’s families, but also punish the freedom of all those still alive, including the affected families themselves. In the long run, it is self defeating.

    The most common complaint is that whichever party you elect they will often prove to be no different than the last if not worse! The frustration mounts.

    Einstein defines insanity as "doing the same thing over again and expecting different results".

    How often do we have to keep voting until we work out that we are insane for not realising that the system we are obsessed with fixing, is not even broken. It works exactly as it is designed to work.

    Democracy is the illusion of control.

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Horse****. Your ignorance on how the EU works shows again.

    Hong Kong has its leader appointed by dictators in Beijing. The EU "leader" is appointed too, but by democratically elected officials from the 27 member nations. On top of that, the Parliament of the EU is elected and has considerable powers over legislation in the EU.

    Calling Hong Kong "free" is an insult to the other countries on the list who actually have free and open elections. Why not put Singapore up there? Oh yea, same situation as Hong Kong..
    You know that Hong Kong has elections? So no if the people of Hong Kong votes collectively against China, then China will lose the election and be unable to appoint anyone. That is quite similar like EU. Only if Europeans collectively went against the EU would they be able to get people like Rompuy out.

    EU is undemocratic due to lack of information. Voters have no idea what they are voting for, pluss they can only vote for one body that has little power. Low turnout is a sign of democratic deficit.
    Last edited by Camlon; 01-13-13 at 10:48 PM.

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    I think its ironic. The Fraser Institute, a right wing conservative think tank, rates all countries with gov ran healthcare systems more free than the US. I thought if we had gov ran healthcare it would not make us free.


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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    You know that Hong Kong has elections? So no if the people of Hong Kong votes collectively against China, then China will lose the election and be unable to appoint anyone.
    Horse****. They might have elections but their whole government is appointed by Bejing.

    That is quite similar like EU. Only if Europeans collectively went against the EU would they be able to get people like Rompuy out.
    Are you seriously trying to link the EU to a dictatorship? Come on.. that is below you and so far from the facts. For one, the people who appointed Rompuy were all elected by the people... not exactly what happens in China eh?

    EU is undemocratic due to lack of information. Voters have no idea what they are voting for, pluss they can only vote for one body that has little power. Low turnout is a sign of democratic deficit.
    More horse**** from you. The information is there.. not the fault of the EU that no one listens. And if low turnout is a sign of democratic deficit.. then god help the US.

    And the EU parliament has a lot of power... maybe you should go and read up on it.
    PeteEU

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Horse****. They might have elections but their whole government is appointed by Bejing.
    That because they always win, just like the eurocrats always win in EU.

    Are you seriously trying to link the EU to a dictatorship? Come on.. that is below you and so far from the facts. For one, the people who appointed Rompuy were all elected by the people... not exactly what happens in China eh?
    By democracy index, Hong Kong is not regarded as a dictatorship, but a flawed democracy. Just like the EU. Maybe Hong Kong is a little bit more flawed, but not by much. You are pretending like it is a huge difference between them.

    And the people who appointed Rumpuy are not elected by the people. They are elected by the parties who are elected by the people. And they are elected for domestic politics, not international politics.

    More horse**** from you. The information is there.. not the fault of the EU that no one listens. And if low turnout is a sign of democratic deficit.. then god help the US.

    And the EU parliament has a lot of power... maybe you should go and read up on it.
    Oh... right. Blame the voters for EU having a democratic deficit. The system is built up so it is hard to get information about what your politicians are doing. It is the system that is the problem, not the people.

    Turnout in the US is at least 58.9%. It is 43.24% in the EU. Even in Hong Kong it is 52.25%. And I never said that democracy in the US is perfect. It is flawed due to special interests having too much power and most states are unable to influence the election. But at least they can directly elect their President.

    When is the people of Europe going to get that right?

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    That because they always win, just like the eurocrats always win in EU.
    LOL okay, cant debate someone who ignores facts.

    By democracy index, Hong Kong is not regarded as a dictatorship, but a flawed democracy. Just like the EU. Maybe Hong Kong is a little bit more flawed, but not by much. You are pretending like it is a huge difference between them.
    There is a huge difference but you seem incapable in wanting to see the very clear differences in the two. Let me try to spell it out..

    China = no elections, one party rule, who dictates Hong Kongs government and policies. At best the Hong Kong legislature can block some legislation but the actual fact is that to run for that legislature you need to have permission from Bejing.

    EU = made up of member nations that all have free elections with multiple parties plus an EU Parliament made up of people elected directly.

    And the people who appointed Rumpuy are not elected by the people.
    What? Are you saying that David Cameron is not elected by the people? That Merkel is not elected by the people? Wow that is news to me!

    They are elected by the parties who are elected by the people. And they are elected for domestic politics, not international politics.
    HAHAH, so who exactly is elected for international politics anywhere? Did you even bother to read what you wrote? So you are seriously saying that when Brits go to the polls they elect a government that has no power in international affairs, because "they are elected for domestic affairs"?

    Oh... right. Blame the voters for EU having a democratic deficit. The system is built up so it is hard to get information about what your politicians are doing. It is the system that is the problem, not the people.
    Come on.. I can get information about the EU easier than I can of my own political parties. I have to go around hunting for information about the 5+ different parties in Denmark, where as I have the option of 2 places for information about the EU. The official EU office in Copenhagen... right on the main shopping street, or EUROPA ? EU website | Choose your language | Choisir une langue | Wählen Sie eine Sprache. How hard can it be? Your "democratic deficit" argument is beyond laughable, especially when you are a prime example of the "typical" EU citizen.. too lazy to read up on facts about the EU.. to lazy to seek out the information and then has the nerve to complain that we dont get enough information.. hello what about personal responsibility?

    Turnout in the US is at least 58.9%. It is 43.24% in the EU.
    First off there is one hell of a difference between the two. The US is a country, the EU is not.

    Secondly the US turnout numbers depend on what part of the US election cycle we are talking about. When there is a President involved, then yes, the turn out is between 45% to 55% (2008 was a special year with 57%.. mostly it is around or below 50%.. still far under most European national elections. However when there is no President involved, those numbers fall to between 33% to 37% and it is the latter which is mostly comparable to the EU elections. On top of that, turnout in EU elections varry across the EU depending on country. Belgium for example had 91% turn-out where as Slovakia only had 20% last election. Ironically the lowest turn out nations are the former soviet satellite states who dont understand elections and the UK... irony at its best.

    Even in Hong Kong it is 52.25%. And I never said that democracy in the US is perfect. It is flawed due to special interests having too much power and most states are unable to influence the election. But at least they can directly elect their President.
    Again, voting in Hong Kong means nothing and the people know that. The high vote in the last election was put down to a protest vote against the Bejing rulers, else the elections usually barely break 40% in turnout.

    When is the people of Europe going to get that right?
    ...... you should go and read up on US election laws... you will find that the US President is not elected directly. Bush Jr comes to mind of a President who lost the popular vote but took the White House.
    PeteEU

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I would seriously debate Australia's ranking, with some of the intense censorship issues they've got going on. They still also have a lot of sexism issues, and while that may not be legally visible, I think it's disingenuous to discount social limitations of freedom.

    Based on that, I'd seriously debate New Zealand as well. I lived there for quite a while. They have some of the most intense racial problems I've seen in the West, matched only by the American south, France, and northern England, in my opinion. In some of the smaller towns, they've still got race riots. Even in the cities, I saw people make openly racist statements. Even workers towards their own patrons.

    New Zealand is also a pretty horrible place to be as an immigrant. They really scam the hell out of you. It's practically robbery, what they do. And I think that needs to be taken into consideration as well, because immigrants are as much a part of the economy and the culture as anyone else.

    It would be one thing if they were just honest and said they don't want immigrants. But that's not what they do. They ENCOURAGE immigration, and then abuse the people who come.

    If you're a born citizen and you're white, Maori, or some other islander, things aren't so bad. Legally, for born citizens, New Zealand is very free.

    But if you're Asian, life is hell. If you're an immigrant (even if you're a citizen) life is pretty tough socially, and if you're a non-citizen, it's borderline unbearable.
    What sexism are you talking about? But please, tell me after you get me my beer.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL okay, cant debate someone who ignores facts.
    So when did eurocrats lose? A guy like Rumpuy would not win a normal election, he has ruled Europe now for 4 years and likely to get another 2 years.

    There is a huge difference but you seem incapable in wanting to see the very clear differences in the two. Let me try to spell it out..

    China = no elections, one party rule, who dictates Hong Kongs government and policies. At best the Hong Kong legislature can block some legislation but the actual fact is that to run for that legislature you need to have permission from Bejing.

    EU = made up of member nations that all have free elections with multiple parties plus an EU Parliament made up of people elected directly.
    That is not correct. Legislature in Hong Kong are decided by Hong Kong, exept the parties who win in Hong Kong are pro-China.. While China could take more power, they currently aren't. But lets talk about another country because of your bias against China.

    What about Singapore? You certainly don't like democracy in Singapore either. But they have free elections, are not controlled by China. Sure they punish districts who vote wrong, but so do EU. In fact I would say democracy in Singapore is better than the EU.



    What? Are you saying that David Cameron is not elected by the people? That Merkel is not elected by the people? Wow that is news to me!
    No, they aren't. People vote for parties who nominate David Cameron or Angela Merkel. Hence they may not represent the people that well, but it doesn't matter due to coalitions. While David Cameron may want to do something, he will be unable to do so due to his parliament and coalition. Also, sometimes coalitions is out of sync with their own people, but are forced to change, because voters are getting information about what they are doing and they don't like it.

    In the EU Merkel and Cameron do not need to care what their coalition thinks and certainly not what their people think. In most cases when Angela Merkel discusses in the EU she only need to care about her own opinion.

    Also, as pointed out. People vote for parties for domestic politics. Not international politics. You came then with the stupid answer. "In no country you do that. ". In the US you vote for state parties for state politics and federal parties for federal politics. That is why many people in New York vote Republican in state elections and Democrat in federal elections. Democracy in the US would be more flawed if governors decided who are going to be President.

    Come on.. I can get information about the EU easier than I can of my own political parties. I have to go around hunting for information about the 5+ different parties in Denmark, where as I have the option of 2 places for information about the EU. The official EU office in Copenhagen... right on the main shopping street, or EUROPA ? EU website | Choose your language | Choisir une langue | Wählen Sie eine Sprache. How hard can it be? Your "democratic deficit" argument is beyond laughable, especially when you are a prime example of the "typical" EU citizen.. too lazy to read up on facts about the EU.. to lazy to seek out the information and then has the nerve to complain that we dont get enough information.. hello what about personal responsibility?
    This just shows contempt for democracy. So the only place to check information about the EU is it's own website. Sure, not biased at all. As pointed out it is not everyone except you being stupid. It is people having a life, that does not revolve around worshiping the EU. It is the system that is made in a way it is hard to get information. Maybe your EU project would go a little bit better if you didn't have such contempt for it's own people.

    In Domestic politics you can check
    - Media
    - Party sites
    - Government sites telling what they are doing
    - Independent blogs/sites

    At EU level the only information you get is what laws are passed and the Offical EU site who used 10 minutes to open and contain no useful information regarding what party to vote for. The problem is that EU does not allow people to directly elect the President, and it does not allow people to vote for parties from other countries. If there was 10 big EU parties, then it would be much easier to know what they stand for and what they are doing.

    However, EU does not just need a better Parliament elections. EU also needs to have direct election of the President. Then the elected President could create a commission and they would have to deal with the Parliament and Council. If that happened, then EU democracy would improve. But right now, like many others I say, "no integration without representation".

    First off there is one hell of a difference between the two. The US is a country, the EU is not.
    A lot of politicans in the EU want EU to become a country. If EU want more integration then I expect higher standard for democracy.

    Secondly the US turnout numbers depend on what part of the US election cycle we are talking about. When there is a President involved, then yes, the turn out is between 45% to 55% (2008 was a special year with 57%.. mostly it is around or below 50%.. still far under most European national elections. However when there is no President involved, those numbers fall to between 33% to 37% and it is the latter which is mostly comparable to the EU elections. On top of that, turnout in EU elections varry across the EU depending on country. Belgium for example had 91% turn-out where as Slovakia only had 20% last election. Ironically the lowest turn out nations are the former soviet satellite states who dont understand elections and the UK... irony at its best.
    Worst excuse ever. EU only has one election every 5 year. If EU had another election in between that was not as important then less than 30% would have voted.

    Again, voting in Hong Kong means nothing and the people know that. The high vote in the last election was put down to a protest vote against the Bejing rulers, else the elections usually barely break 40% in turnout.
    Still EU only got 40%. So during the worst years in Hong Kong, they have the same participation as the EU. You are calling Hong Kong a dictatorship and EU a democracy. Then why do more people vote in Hong Kong than in the EU. Maybe it is due to the democratic deficit in the EU. People feel their vote means nothing, because it is impossible to see their impact of their vote, because EU lacks transparency.

    Also, another reason participation increased in Hong Kong is because democracy in Hong Kong improved. It is now possible to vote out the pro-Chinese parties.

    ...... you should go and read up on US election laws... you will find that the US President is not elected directly. Bush Jr comes to mind of a President who lost the popular vote but took the White House.
    I just talked about it previously when I said US democracy is flawed too, but not as flawed as the EU. Why do you post dumb comments like that, do you think I will not notice?

    While they can not directly elect their President by popular vote, they can at least elect him directly by state vote. That is better than EU who has no election at all.
    Last edited by Camlon; 01-14-13 at 10:24 PM.

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    Re: NZ tops global human freedom list

    To summarize, democratic deficit in Europe is caused by lack of proper elections and transparency.

    1. Commission is not elected

    2. Council consists of the head of states. They are elected by the coalition who are elected on domestic issues not on EU issues. Hence, if voters want politicians who represent them on EU-issues then they have to sacrifice domestic issues.

    3. In Parliament it is illegal to vote for parties outside your home country, and the elections are not in fact bout Europe, but are ‘second-order national contests’: fought by national parties on the performance of national governments, with lower turnout than national elections, and hence won by opposition and protest parties.

    4. Also, there is a lack of information and voters have no idea what their parties are doing in the parliament. Hence, a lack of accountability.

    To improve this problem, then
    1. The President should be elected. and there should be only one President
    2. The Parliament is given the power to create laws
    3. Voters can vote for all parties in Europe. To encourage large European parties then a 5% limit can be created. If any party gets less than 5% then it won't be represented in parliament.
    4. The representative for the council is elected. That will resolve problem number 2
    5. With enough signatures (10% of the population in Europe) there will be an European wide poll.
    6. A website with voting information for each representative should be created, to create transparency.
    7. Term period is reduced from 5 years to 4 or 3 years.
    Last edited by Camlon; 01-15-13 at 12:16 AM.

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