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Thread: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You are right that health care is important. Far too important to be put in the hands of government.

    The reason health care is expensive is because there is little competition. Whenever there is a middleman costs go up and services decline.

    Once the bureaucracy gets legs it will be too expensive for everyone.

    No free lunch, remember?
    Which is why countries with UHC spend less?

    No, competition is often good and bad. Buyer beware is fine with widgets and other market services, but we have good experience with snake oil salespeople in this country. Health is important, we agree, but don't fool yourself that competition fixes all evil. Long a ago, so hard to link, but there was an article on healthcare titled "The Revolution." Late seventies or early eighties. They noted at the time that no matter how many doctors you brought into the area, the market didn't saturate. Instead, they ordered more test, brought in more and more people. You might recall how doctors owned X-ray machines and such, which promoted red ring more and more tests.

    The point is, the market was working, competition was high, and costs were sky rocketing. And even then, the costs for those not paying we're being passed along to those who do.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    A hot dog is cheap, and if I can't afford it, I'll eat what I have at home, no problem. If my daughter has a serious illness or injury, and I can't afford it, that is an unacceptable situation. Healthcare is not like other market services or widgets. Health is much more important, not something you can always barter. And as a people, and rightly I think, we're not willing to turn people in need away. So no matter how we debate it, absent, that cost will be assed along. The question is do we do it systematically, or ad hoc? Pay more less, or less for more?
    Slow down and examine the PPACA "fix"; everyone still gets "free" ER care, only now it comes at GREATER cost, since a "private" insurance company was MANDATED to be ADDED to the mix, and virtually guaranteed a 15% to 20% "cut" of that ER bill. To assert that "free" medical care is more imporatnt than "free" food in really a stretch, even for you. Of course you are not offering that "trade", you simply assert that BOTH should be "free" to those "in need".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Which is why countries with UHC spend less?
    Did you ever investigate why they spend less? Do you genuinely believe that a doctor working under government supervision and bureaucracy would provide better service than this same doctor working on his private practice?

    No, competition is often good and bad.
    Some examples please.
    Buyer beware is fine with widgets and other market services, but we have good experience with snake oil salespeople in this country.
    Moreso than other countries? What makes you think that?

    Health is important, we agree, but don't fool yourself that competition fixes all evil.
    Of course I never made that claim, but it certainly beats monopolies.
    Long a ago, so hard to link, but there was an article on healthcare titled "The Revolution." Late seventies or early eighties. They noted at the time that no matter how many doctors you brought into the area, the market didn't saturate. Instead, they ordered more test, brought in more and more people. You might recall how doctors owned X-ray machines and such, which promoted red ring more and more tests.
    So private doctors were harming their patients? It seems that building up a clientele was of no importance to them - an unusual business model. However you might investigate what happens under government run health care, keeping in mind that it will also be difficult to sue for malpractice. If you are interested in what the future holds look up the history of the NHS in the UK, with the understanding that at one time, like the US, they had some of the best doctors in the world. Now the bureaucracy runs the show. This is just a random example Financial pressure in NHS 'worst seen' NHS managers warn - Telegraph but there are thousands more.

    The point is, the market was working, competition was high, and costs were sky rocketing. And even then, the costs for those not paying we're being passed along to those who do.
    If the market was working, as you claim, costs would not be skyrocketing. Can you be more specific in your example?

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Slow down and examine the PPACA "fix"; everyone still gets "free" ER care, only now it comes at GREATER cost, since a "private" insurance company was MANDATED to be ADDED to the mix, and virtually guaranteed a 15% to 20% "cut" of that ER bill. To assert that "free" medical care is more imporatnt than "free" food in really a stretch, even for you. Of course you are not offering that "trade", you simply assert that BOTH should be "free" to those "in need".
    It's not free. Has never been free and never will be. However, with insurance, you now have a payer, with premiums collected. What I maintain is that no one should have to decide between care for a loved one and money.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's not free. Has never been free and never will be. However, with insurance, you now have a payer, with premiums collected. What I maintain is that no one should have to decide between care for a loved one and money.
    Slow down and think about that some more. Now, if a "poor" (133% to 200% of poverty line ) person (say 1 in 100 in a given year) needs ER care they get it "free", and ONLY that cost (for actual ER care) is spread among all paying hospital users. Under PPACA, ALL 100 of these "poor" folks get 90% of their insurance premiums subsidized (that HIGHER cost spread among all citizens) so that 1 out of 100 "poor" person's ER care is now a much higher cost, since insurance subsidy costs for the 99 "poor" requiring no ER care, at all, were paid for as well.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Did you ever investigate why they spend less? Do you genuinely believe that a doctor working under government supervision and bureaucracy would provide better service than this same doctor working on his private practice?
    I suspect you probably already know the answer, but for just one, they have far less (per citizen) expensive machines. It's easy to keep costs down when you don't purchase tools to assist patients and doctors.

    Britain has fewer high-tech medical machines than Estonia and Turkey - Telegraph

    The NHS in England had 6 MRI machines per million population in 2010, with figures across Britain putting the country below the Slovak Republic, Turkey, Estonia and Ireland in a league table of provision.
    there are over 7,950 MRI scanners in the US, which equals 25.9 MRI machines per million population.

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I suspect you probably already know the answer, but for just one, they have far less (per citizen) expensive machines. It's easy to keep costs down when you don't purchase tools to assist patients and doctors.

    Britain has fewer high-tech medical machines than Estonia and Turkey - Telegraph
    You'll see this scenario repeated a hundred times over. The Doctor Won

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I suspect you probably already know the answer, but for just one, they have far less (per citizen) expensive machines. It's easy to keep costs down when you don't purchase tools to assist patients and doctors.

    Britain has fewer high-tech medical machines than Estonia and Turkey - Telegraph
    This is the NHS in England alone. BBC News - Staff census shows NHS workforce hits 1.4 million

    Some comparisons BBC News - Which is the world's biggest employer?

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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So they aren't investing their resources in really helping the patients with techonology, instead investing in a big and bloated bureaucracy? No wonder the left loves them so much.

  10. #140
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    Re: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Slow down and think about that some more. Now, if a "poor" (133% to 200% of poverty line ) person (say 1 in 100 in a given year) needs ER care they get it "free", and ONLY that cost (for actual ER care) is spread among all paying hospital users. Under PPACA, ALL 100 of these "poor" folks get 90% of their insurance premiums subsidized (that HIGHER cost spread among all citizens) so that 1 out of 100 "poor" person's ER care is now a much higher cost, since insurance subsidy costs for the 99 "poor" requiring no ER care, at all, were paid for as well.
    How do you know that what is passed on is the actual cost and not more?

    Now, this is also the worse case, but what is the effect to all of us if people who get I'll are not seen? Th

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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