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Thread: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as pollutant i

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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Stormwater runoff is rain that falls on streets, parking areas, sports fields, gravel lots, rooftops or other developed land and flows directly into nearby lakes, rivers and Puget Sound. The drizzling or pounding rain picks up and mixes with what's on the ground:

    Oil, grease, metals and coolants from vehicles;
    Fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals from gardens and homes;
    Bacteria from pet wastes and failing septic systems;
    Soil from construction sites and other bare ground;
    Soaps from car or equipment washing; and
    Accidental spills, leaky storage containers, tobacco spit and whatever else ends up on the ground.

    The polluted runoff then rushes into nearby gutters and storm drains and into Puget Sound's streams, lakes, rivers and bays. In most areas, stormwater runoff enters these waters without being cleaned of pollutants.

    Why is stormwater a problem?

    Across the U.S., unmanaged stormwater runoff has caused serious damage to streams, lakes and estuaries, particularly where land uses change from rural to urban activities. ....

    The Washington Department of Ecology estimates that one-third of all the polluted waters in the state are polluted by stormwater runoff. Stormwater pollution has contributed to closing thousands of acres of productive shellfish growing beaches. Stormwater runoff can also close swimming beaches and contaminate drinking water supplies.

    Poorly managed stormwater causes three big problems:

    Pollution from stormwater contaminates our waters, closes local businesses, and harms or kills fish and other wildlife. As stormwater passes over developed land, it picks up pollutants and transports them to the nearest storm drain and eventually Puget Sound's rivers and bays.

    Flooding harms streams and wetlands and destroys habitat needed for fish and other wildlife. Unable to soak into the ground, stormwater quickly flows or floods downstream from developed land during the rainy season. As a result, floods can damage homes and businesses, flood septic system drain fields and overwhelm streams, wetlands and wildlife habitat.

    Water shortages in growing communities may occur, especially in developed areas with impervious surfaces or areas where water cannot filtrate through, such as roads, parking lots and rooftops. The impervious surfaces keep rainfall from soaking into the ground and replenishing groundwater and streams used for drinking water or fish habitat.
    Stormwater runoff pollution and how to reduce it
    Seems to me the regulations and laws should be on the other end, don't regulate runoff, regulate what makes it dirty in the first place. Calling water a pollutant means the EPA is admitting it has failed to do its job. I know in the logging industry people used to change oil in their equipment in the woods letting the old oil just run off onto the dirt road but the FS stopped that long ago. Nowadays if you have a yarder or a loader etc that even leaks some hydraulic oil as most old junk does, you have to keep a tarp under it covered with oil absorbing sand and routinely haul that out to be properly disposed of with paper work that proves it. That is attacking the problem on the right end and the EPA could learn from that but they want power not clean water so they choose the other end.

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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.
    Why is it that we, the swinish masses, can see that, but the smartest man in the world can't?

    Is it a way to control the population, or are they not nearly as smart as they want us to think they are?
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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Stormwater is not in and of itself a pollutant, of course. The problem with runoff water is that it often degrades the environment by contributing to erosion, which is an inevitably when you have impervious manmade surfaces like concrete etc. that wouldn't otherwise be there. Not to mention the fact that runoff water tends to pick up pollutants when it runs over such impervious surfaces.
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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Stormwater runoff is rain that falls on streets, parking areas, sports fields, gravel lots, rooftops or other developed land and flows directly into nearby lakes, rivers and Puget Sound. The drizzling or pounding rain picks up and mixes with what's on the ground:

    Oil, grease, metals and coolants from vehicles;
    Fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals from gardens and homes;
    Bacteria from pet wastes and failing septic systems;
    Soil from construction sites and other bare ground;
    Soaps from car or equipment washing; and
    Accidental spills, leaky storage containers, tobacco spit and whatever else ends up on the ground.

    The polluted runoff then rushes into nearby gutters and storm drains and into Puget Sound's streams, lakes, rivers and bays. In most areas, stormwater runoff enters these waters without being cleaned of pollutants.

    Why is stormwater a problem?

    Across the U.S., unmanaged stormwater runoff has caused serious damage to streams, lakes and estuaries, particularly where land uses change from rural to urban activities. ....

    The Washington Department of Ecology estimates that one-third of all the polluted waters in the state are polluted by stormwater runoff. Stormwater pollution has contributed to closing thousands of acres of productive shellfish growing beaches. Stormwater runoff can also close swimming beaches and contaminate drinking water supplies.

    Poorly managed stormwater causes three big problems:

    Pollution from stormwater contaminates our waters, closes local businesses, and harms or kills fish and other wildlife. As stormwater passes over developed land, it picks up pollutants and transports them to the nearest storm drain and eventually Puget Sound's rivers and bays.

    Flooding harms streams and wetlands and destroys habitat needed for fish and other wildlife. Unable to soak into the ground, stormwater quickly flows or floods downstream from developed land during the rainy season. As a result, floods can damage homes and businesses, flood septic system drain fields and overwhelm streams, wetlands and wildlife habitat.

    Water shortages in growing communities may occur, especially in developed areas with impervious surfaces or areas where water cannot filtrate through, such as roads, parking lots and rooftops. The impervious surfaces keep rainfall from soaking into the ground and replenishing groundwater and streams used for drinking water or fish habitat.
    Stormwater runoff pollution and how to reduce it
    If the storm water runs into a navagable wateway any pollution is the responsibilty of the US Coast Guard or the State Surface Water Division depending on where it is located. Size has no part.

    Also, Most storm water is a pollutant by characterization. The amount of ingrediants that are in it can compose a risk to aquatic life. This is especially true in Industrial and Agricultural areas.
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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why is it that we, the swinish masses, can see that, but the smartest man in the world can't?

    Is it a way to control the population, or are they not nearly as smart as they want us to think they are?
    Tell me how you get from storm water to population control, this outta be funny.

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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Tell me how you get from storm water to population control, this outta be funny.
    That's easy, and I believe I can highlight it with another posters comment just above this one.....

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75
    Stormwater is not in and of itself a pollutant, of course. The problem with runoff water is that it often degrades the environment by contributing to erosion, which is an inevitably when you have impervious manmade surfaces like concrete etc. that wouldn't otherwise be there. Not to mention the fact that runoff water tends to pick up pollutants when it runs over such impervious surfaces.
    By looking at SB's comment here you can clearly see that he doesn't believe that 'runoff' naturally occuring is a problem, but rather that it has to run off of "manmade" surfaces....So, man is the problem.
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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That's easy, and I believe I can highlight it with another posters comment just above this one.....



    By looking at SB's comment here you can clearly see that he doesn't believe that 'runoff' naturally occuring is a problem, but rather that it has to run off of "manmade" surfaces....So, man is the problem.
    So how does this mean Obama and the EPA want to control the population? Its nothing new that man made objects can change how storm run off or anything else works in an ecosystem, I mean did you know dams change how a river flows too?

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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    I'm not really sure why people take issue with the idea that contaminated water could be considered a pollutant given the wrong circumstances.

    As usual, the issue seems to be absolute thinking. Obviously water isn't always a pollutant, even water runoff isn't always a pollutant. However, given the circumstances in this particular area the EPA decided that the runoff was polluting this particular river.

    But no. Any time the EPA steps in on something we have to just assume its this big scary power grab omg its 1984 time!
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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    So how does this mean Obama and the EPA want to control the population? Its nothing new that man made objects can change how storm run off or anything else works in an ecosystem, I mean did you know dams change how a river flows too?
    Oh come on, let's not get insulting. Seems to me that the EPA was trying to control runoff in terms of built up areas, or at least that is what some in here are arguing. The judge rightly smacked 'em down. Controlling development, and population location is a form of control. Is it not?
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    Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

    Fairfax County, Virginia, is massively developed. Anything that drives up the cost there promotes more urban sprawl.

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