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Thread: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

  1. #81
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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Oh wait, buck, you are under the misguided impression that Congress needs to sign off on the coin design. Ah, I see your confusion. Nope, not according to the text of the law.

    31 USC § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins | LII / Legal Information Institute

    (k) The Secretary may mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary’s discretion, may prescribe from time to time.
    My emphasis for ease of reading.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-07-13 at 02:59 PM.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Oh wait, buck, you are under the misguided impression that Congress needs to sign off on the coin design. Ah, I see your confusion. Nope, not according to the text of the law.

    31 USC § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins | LII / Legal Information Institute
    My emphasis for ease of reading.
    Without going through the law and to be as lazy as possible, I have my doubts:

    From the article in the OP:
    At that point, the American people must decide whose face will adorn the trillion dollar trinket. The process to determine the "specs" of the coin, U.S. Mint Public Affairs Specialist Genevieve Billia warns, must be "determined by legislation," creating the potential for another congressional impasse.
    Also to note: The likeness sculpted into its side must belong to a dead person, ruling out early favorite Ikea Monkey, but boosting the candidacies of Ronald Reagan and John Maynard Keynes.
    I really do tend to just trust the US Mint and am more likely to just assume I am missing somethign in the actual law. Of course, as any media report, I guess it could be wrong. Shrug.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Without going through the law and to be as lazy as possible, I have my doubts:
    Well yeah, if you can’t actually be bothered to get off your ass and read (even when it is handed to you on platter) you are going to stay pretty ****ing ignorant.

    Because I am not even directly contradicting PR Talkinghead Guy (yeah, they never get anything backwards *cough*ambassador susan rice*cough*) as the legislation already lays it out, in this case the Secretary gets to pick and choose.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-07-13 at 03:15 PM.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Holy ignorance on a stick, Batman! Interest payments run counter to market demand for the debt being issued.
    Seriously ?

    The Fed controls interest rates on Treasuries, among other things and is currently keeping them low to try and kick start a shrinking economy. It's not working because ignorant ideologues elected and re-elected an incompetent ideologue and interest rates are just Bernanke's way of saying " I tried '.

    Oh and they're kept low because any increase in interest rates by say, just a few points would bankrupt us as you apologist clamor on about the debt not being an issue. Imagine the first time we can't service our debt because a 6% interest increase added 1 trillion to Captain-dumb-shyts massive annual deficit spending.


    But we have nothing to worry about right ? Unemployment is decreasing ( Because the labor pool is decreasing ) and our GDP is 3% ( because of massive Federal spending, not consumer increases ) and tax rates on the most extremely most evil richest in America went up so we can finally add revenue ( tax increases on just about everyone wen't up and it will actually lower revenue ) and ObamaCare will cut the deficit.......LOL !!
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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Seriously ?
    Yes, seriously.

    The Fed controls interest rates on Treasuries…
    Only partially.

    Institutional - How Treasury Auctions Work

    Further, if the market was unwilling to buy enough of the pre-fixed yield bonds (i.e. demand was low) they would be pressured to raise the return rates on the debt issued.

    Come on people, think. Why do you think that “junk bonds” have such high rates of interest?

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Holy ignorance on a stick, Batman! Interest payments run counter to market demand for the debt being issued.
    Great gooey, gobs of grimy, green, gopher grunt, Robin. Greece be saved! All they have to do is put a trilliooon dollars of bonds out there with no competing bidder and the Federal Reserve will buy them at about 0 % interest. No problem.. Let's see now, the US Treasury issues bonds and nobody bids so the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) buys them all for 0 %. Hot damn y'all an swar, Batman, I think we found the Holy Grail. Why is Greece paying 7% interest and it can't be their debt because it's about the same as ours. Is duplicity afoot? Let's try that again. The whole world knows the US needs money and borrows with bonds. Must be everybody wants them. No, They don't. China even stopped buying. ERGO, the US improves the bait by offering better interest, like Greece, but wait, No, they don't. The Private Corporation and BAnk, The Federal Reserve offers to purhase them near 0 % interest. Gadzooks, Batman, sell your Federal Reserve stock; it's being run by morons, it would appear.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Great gooey, gobs of grimy, green, gopher grunt, Robin. Greece be saved! All they have to do is put a trillion dollars of bonds out there with no competing bidder and the Federal Reserve will buy them at about 0 % interest.
    In your addled mind they can put it out with bidding because the less demand for it the lower the rates.


    Let’s see now, the US Treasury issues bonds and nobody bids so the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) buys them all for 0 %.
    Buys them all? At 0%? Er, no. Yes, the Fed Reserve has sopped up some at certain periods (it even did this at times at a smaller scale prior to the 2008 recession). However:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/bu...ends.html?_r=0
    Why is Greece paying 7% interest and it can’t be their debt because it’s about the same as ours.
    Greece’s debt is not “about the same as ours”, by any measure..unless you happen to be a Japan citizen? But even that is a stretch, as Japan’s debt to GDP is somewhat higher than Greece’s.

    Also, Greece has a much more fundamental problems than just the size of their debt that has earned them their current risk expectation on their government issued debt.
    China even stopped buying.
    Well they started, again. Further:
    China Resumed Treasury Buys in July as Trade Surplus Widened - Businessweek
    “The biggest misconception in the marketplace is that Chinese buying of Treasuries has something to do with Treasuries,” said Krishna Memani, director of fixed income at OppenheimerFunds Inc. in New York, who manages $70 billion. “China buying Treasuries has everything to do with China’s trade position relative to the U.S. It’s entirely trade driven.”
    Somebody has been feeding you a whole lot of misinformation and you’ve been lapping it up.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-07-13 at 05:41 PM.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Yes, seriously.


    Only partially.

    Institutional - How Treasury Auctions Work

    Further, if the market was unwilling to buy enough of the pre-fixed yield bonds (i.e. demand was low) they would be pressured to raise the return rates on the debt issued.

    Come on people, think. Why do you think that “junk bonds” have such high rates of interest?
    Yes, Treasuries are sold through Treasury Auctions, I get that.

    You think investors sheltering their assets in the last stand that is the US Treasury is a good thing ? Sounds like the makings of a Bond bubble as our debt ( a "non-issue" ) climbs to astronomical proportions and these short term bonds mature and or are sold off at a discount rate.

    Point is a climbing debt based on short term Treasuries at low interest rates equals the inevitable increasing bond yield....unless we can guarantee interest rates will be kept a next to nothing for ever.

    That's kind of like investors thinking housing prices were going to keep climbing and never stop, but that didn't happen.

    I see a messy end to Obama's and Bernake's little experiment. I don't see any way out of it personally.
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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    In your addled mind they can put it out with bidding because the less demand for it the lower the rates.



    Buys them all? At 0%? Er, no. Yes, the Fed Reserve has sopped up some at certain periods (it even did this at times at a smaller scale prior to the 2008 recession). However:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/bu...ends.html?_r=0

    Greece’s debt is not “about the same as ours”, by any measure..unless you happen to be a Japan citizen? But even that is a stretch, as Japan’s debt to GDP is somewhat higher than Greece’s.

    Also, Greece has a much more fundamental problems than just the size of their debt that has earned them their current risk expectation on their government issued debt.

    Well they started, again. Further:
    China Resumed Treasury Buys in July as Trade Surplus Widened - Businessweek


    Somebody has been feeding you a whole lot of misinformation and you’ve been lapping it up.


    I see! You agree that the Fed buys lots of bonds. You agree China stopped buying. Apparently Greece doesn't have a FED to buy their bonds. So the USA bonds are bought by groups that don't believe in the value of money. You know. Near 0 % interest. China must buy those bonds because of the pretty paper they are printed on. Wait, they love the devaluation of monies that have been going with the US Dollar. Since they only have afew trillion of USD laying about losing value, why not get some more? Ah, the vagueries of Big Business. Buy those US Treasuries so the US will be able to buy our products says the Chinaman. Send them mo' money and they'll buy more or everything and in a circular fashion. Did Bernie Madoff invent this system?

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Yes, Treasuries are sold through Treasury Auctions, I get that.
    Your post was evidence otherwise. Or do you mean you get it now that I have corrected you?
    You think investors sheltering their assets in the last stand that is the US Treasury is a good thing ?
    I think that investors considering US Treasury bonds as an instrument suitable for “sheltering their assets” blows out of the water DaveFagan’s assertions.
    Sounds like the makings of a Bond bubble
    …as our debt ( a “non-issue”)…
    Can you please stop that stupid ****.
    ..climbs to astronomical proportions…
    To infinity, and beyond!
    …and these short term bonds mature…
    The bulk of the US debt is longer term debt. The short-term debt (52 week bills and shorter) was running as about $1T of the debt back in 2009. The second stage of QE 3 (AKA QE Twist) was partially about moving some more short-term out into long term to make sure to maintain that risk buffer.
    ..and or are sold off at a discount rate.
    If, for example, enough people became convinced that the numbnuts the in Congress peanut gallery were actually going to force the US government to default, sure that could happen. It cost a several billion in interest last time in 2011 as they convince at least a smaller number of people that they really are that bat****.
    Point is a climbing debt based on short term Treasuries at low interest rates equals the inevitable increasing bond yield….unless we can guarantee interest rates will be kept a next to nothing for ever.
    First, 30-year T bonds are going for around 3%, 10-year ones (the biggest chunk of debt) are going for 2% and change.

    Next, IMO we do [as I have now repeated a number of times in this thread alone] need restructure government finances in the longer term. There will come a time when interest rates are going to rise. Fortunately along with that it is reasonable to expect that government revenue, even maintaining current tax policy, will have recovered somewhat. As well there will be less pressure on government programs that was created by the recession.**

    So, in short, now is not the time to panic and do something that would be entirely destructive; Demand an immediately balanced US Fed budget.


    ** Longer discussion in here but I am going to leave that for now so as not to muddle the discussion.

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