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Thread: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

  1. #91
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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I see!
    No you don’t.

    You are entirely clueless and without hope, or likely motivation, for making some sort of intellectual contribution or at least growing. Welcome to the Ignore List!

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Your post was evidence otherwise. Or do you mean you get it now that I have corrected you?
    I'm not the one attempting to justify the current administrations policies of deficit spending in response to a shrinking economy therefore I'm not the one in need of "correction".As for your pointing out that Treasuries are auctioned off I'm not really sure why you needed to point out the obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    I think that investors considering US Treasury bonds as an instrument suitable for “sheltering their assets” blows out of the water DaveFagan’s assertions.
    Given the current "eat the rich" liberal meme of our current administration and our Western European's Friends propensity to tax the hell out of their citizenry US treasuries are a especially good way to shelter your assets for the time being. That is until yields start to rise which is.....inevitable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Can you please stop that stupid ****.
    What ? There are some here that argue that the debt isn't an issue or that it's being blown way out of proportion for political reasons. I was being facetious.....obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    To infinity, and beyond! .
    We reached infinity two years ago. What's a good stopping off point ? 20 T ? 30 T ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    The bulk of the US debt is longer term debt. The short-term debt (52 week bills and shorter) was running as about $1T of the debt back in 2009. The second stage of QE 3 (AKA QE Twist) was partially about moving some more short-term out into long term to make sure to maintain that risk buffer.
    But we ignore other risk, like sell off's or waiting for our credit rating to be devalued forcing higher yields on short term bonds.. The problem with so much short term low interest bonds is the feasibility and likely increase of bond yields and the current administrations inability to service that new debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    If, for example, enough people became convinced that the numbnuts the in Congress peanut gallery were actually going to force the US government to default, sure that could happen. It cost a several billion in interest last time in 2011 as they convince at least a smaller number of people that they really are that bat****.
    I doubt they're going to refuse to raise the debt ceiling but given the current administrations seemingly counter intuitive reactions to a shrinking economy I really don't see what difference it makes. We're raising our debt for the purposes of perpetuating a failing economy and nothing else.

    We're not fighting some massive war or "space war against martians" ( Thank You Krugman, you goofy bastid for that ) , or putting a man on mars or building some mega dam or even making investments for the future that would be worthy of new debt. It's BAD debt and contrary to the libtards that like to state that we are going through a "recovery" the truth is we are struggling and sinking further down the rabbit hole.

    We're taking the extra capital that usually is used as a way to finance a assertive foreign policy in a time of global conflict but now it's what's it's use ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    First, 30-year T bonds are going for around 3%, 10-year ones (the biggest chunk of debt) are going for 2% and change.

    Next, IMO we do [as I have now repeated a number of times in this thread alone] need restructure government finances in the longer term. There will come a time when interest rates are going to rise. Fortunately along with that it is reasonable to expect that government revenue, even maintaining current tax policy, will have recovered somewhat. As well there will be less pressure on government programs that was created by the recession.**
    You seem to have far more faith and trust in our current administration than I do and it tends to be the dialogue among politicians to promise something up front and then receive a good kick in the ass for your troubles when the bills due. Personally, I would bet on lending 50 bucks to a crack addict and getting that back than Obama and his cohorts either increasing revenue through economic growth OR for spending under the Democrats to be curtailed.

    Funny those government programs "created by the recession" were caused by government programs that "created the recession". Obama and is ilk have not made any notable efforts to rectify our economic failure. And no spending and taxing, nor Keynesian attempts have not made any positive impact or caused a "recovery". Keynesian in a global economy.......lol. Any stimulus just winds up being shipped out to one of largest debt holders because we've become a tertiary economy and we buy lots-o-Chinese junk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    So, in short, now is not the time to panic and do something that would be entirely destructive; Demand an immediately balanced US Fed budget.


    ** Longer discussion in here but I am going to leave that for now so as not to muddle the discussion.
    No of-course, lets wait a bit longer for the panic.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    I'm not the one attempting to justify the current administrations policies of deficit spending in response to a shrinking economy therefore I'm not the one in need of "correction".As for your pointing out that Treasuries are auctioned off I’m not really sure why you needed to point out the obvious.
    You claimed that “The Fed controls interest rates on Treasuries”, which in NOT the case. Ergo you needed the correction…for something that you know claim is so obvious that I should not even mention it?



    What ? There are some here that argue that the debt isn't an issue or that it's being blown way out of proportion for political reasons.I was being facetious…obviously.
    What is not obvious that you were not being facetious towards me, which is nonsensical given my comments. What seemed to me far more obvious is that your brain is stuck deep in a false dichotomy.
    But we ignore other risk, like sell off’s or waiting for our credit rating to be devalued forcing higher yields on short term bonds.
    Who is this “we”, Kimosabe? Oh sure these are dangerous times with idiots suggesting that it is a good idea to default on honouring Treasury instruments for “for a day or two or three or four” getting scarily close to the controls of power. But, although he still has a seat in Congress, he failed in his VP bid a couple months back and hopefully will get no closer anytime soon. Boehner even effectively moved him further out of influence by acknowledging he really is not in a position to negotiate, since he cannot delivery the goods on deals.

    See, there actually needs to be a reason for the sell-off. So we stay calm and methodically wind thing down, because panic leads to dumb decisions. So how about instead of panic later we do the smart thing and just don’t panic at all? Steady hand.
    I doubt they’re going to refuse to raise the debt ceiling…
    I would hope so. I do feel reasonably comfortable that in the end here are enough sane people left on the GOP side of the House to set aside party unity in favor of the country’s interests. But there is definitely a non-zero number bent on stopping it and being quite vocal about it, in a manner convincing enough that [semi-]serious discussions about $1T coins are being had. *shrug*
    You seem to have far more faith and trust in our current administration…
    Well I certainly have more faith in them than the [most likely to be elected] alternatives presented in 2008 and 2012.

    Am I care-free? No, dangerous times and even if I thought the WH infallible this business of government is a group operation larger than just the Executive Branch, and their are definitely gremlins in the works. I mentioned one particular raven haired one in Congress, above, for example.

    But the text you quoted does not have much to do with my particular level confidence, or lack of confidence, in the current WH. It has to do with what the likely environment is that would drive said interest rates [assuming asshats don’t manage to burn our government to the ground in the supposed name of saving us from debt].
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-07-13 at 11:39 PM.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    no


    . .
    Well how about a 2 trillion dollar coin then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Pop quiz, how do does Canada and the US compare on ratio of yearly government expenditures (total of all levels of government) as a percentage of GDP:
    1) USA’s expenditure ratio is notably higher
    2) roughly the same
    3) Canada’s expenditure ratio is notably higher
    Here's public debt by different countries. List of countries by public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You can see that Canada's debt under a Conservative government is moving down while US debt, under BHO and his czars, continues to grow. You'll note also that the US is getting up there with Portugal, Ireland and Greece. Did you vote for this?

    As to public expenditures, if Canada is spending the money it is raising from taxes then it is preferable to borrowing it and getting trillions of dollars in debt. However if your point is that Canada is also over-governed, I would agree. There should be less in both countries.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Well how about a 2 trillion dollar coin then?
    How about we make a trillion dollar coin and market it to the gullible people who watch faux news for 29.95? I see great profit there. they bought gold for three times the value, other stupid coin remakes that are not worth a dime to collectors, and the glen beck apocalypse survival kit. We put a little disclaimer in the ad that says non-negotiable and we would never have a deficit again. It is the perfect plan, and the faux whores would peddle it to their own mothers.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Well how about a 2 trillion dollar coin then?
    I prefer the helix counterproposal of minting a septillion dollar coin. this would erase the deficit instantly, and I could finally realize my dream of seeing free ice cream Thursday added to the constitution.

    right before the dollar ceased to be the global reserve currency, and instead became choice fuel for woodstoves, that is.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Here's public debt by different countries. List of countries by public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You can see that Canada’s debt under a Conservative government is moving down while US debt, under BHO and his czars, continues to grow.
    Why? A few reasons.
    1) Conservative party overall in Canada is roughly on par with the right side of the Democratic party in the US, with some caveats.
    2) A lot of the budget hard work was done a decade back in Canada, led by a fellow named Paul Martin. First as Finance Minister and then as Prime Minister, starting back in the mid-90’s. (( http://blogs.usask.ca/the_bolt/image...ebt_vs_gdp.gif , Canada General government gross debt in percent of GDP )) The Conservative government did not get into power till some time in 2006 and even then was a minority government (meaning they had a lot less sway) for a number of years after that.
    3) Notice in the chart above the large leap in debt vs GDP in 2008? And, in no small part because Canada regulation thwarted a lot of the housing bubble that struck the US, the 2008 recession has been much kinder on Canada’s economy and its government budget, those effects multiplying to make the debt vs GDP hit smaller and shorter.
    4) The US’s debt vs GDP has largely stabilized, returning to somewhere around the pre-recession rates of rising.

    See, that is the key here. Canada’s debt vs GDP was falling pre-recession and had been for about 12 years. Pre-recession in the US, for about 8 years, it had been rising. And the GOP still has not managed to shake from them the attitude and philosophies and policies that made it that way. Complete. Total. Denial.
    You’ll note also that the US is getting up there with Portugal, Ireland and Greece. Did you vote for this?
    If you voted Republican for POLTUS in 2000, 2004, 2008, or [yes, even] 2012 you did. If you did not realize that, you did a very poor job of reading the [not so] fine print.
    As to public expenditures, if Canada is spending the money it is raising from taxes then it is preferable to borrowing it and getting trillions of dollars in debt.
    You would think but try find someone billing themselves as “fiscally responsible” in Congress [publically] acknowledging that is nigh hopeless.
    However if your point is that Canada is also over-governed, I would agree. There should be less in both countries.
    A huge chunk of the problem is that when it comes down to the brass tacks of it very, very, very few people follow through on that. The vast majority that voice that really are talking about something else, using it as an excuse for an agenda that largely looks to and/or implies continuation and even deepening of the class hierarchy in this country [that undercuts the idea of a meritocracy].
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-08-13 at 09:10 AM.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Why? A few reasons.
    1) Conservative party overall in
    Canada is roughly on par with the right side of the Democratic party in the US, with some caveats.
    2) A lot of the budget hard work was done a decade back in Canada, led by a fellow named Paul Martin. First as Finance Minister and then as Prime Minister, starting back in the mid-90’s. (( http://blogs.usask.ca/the_bolt/image...ebt_vs_gdp.gif , Canada General government gross debt in percent of GDP )) The Conservative government did not get into power till some time in 2006 and even then was a minority government (meaning they had a lot less sway) for a number of years after that.
    3) Notice in the chart above the large leap in debt vs GDP in 2008? And, in no small part because Canada regulation thwarted a lot of the housing bubble that struck the US, the 2008 recession has been much kinder on Canada’s economy and its government budget, those effects multiplying to make the debt vs GDP hit smaller and shorter.
    4) The US’s debt vs GDP has largely stabilized, returning to somewhere around the pre-recession rates of rising.

    See, that is the key here. Canada’s debt vs GDP was falling pre-recession and had been for about 12 years. Pre-recession in the US, for about 8 years, it had been rising. And the GOP still has not managed to shake from them the attitude and philosophies and policies that made it that way. Complete. Total. Denial.

    If you voted Republican for POLTUS in 2000, 2004, 2008, or [yes, even] 2012 you did. If you did not realize that, you did a very poor job of reading the [not so] fine print.

    You would think but try find someone billing themselves as “fiscally responsible” in Congress [publically] acknowledging that is nigh hopeless.

    A huge chunk of the problem is that when it comes down to the brass tacks of it very, very, very few people follow through on that. The vast majority that voice that really are talking about something else, using it as an excuse for an agenda that largely looks to and/or implies continuation and even deepening of the class hierarchy in this country [that undercuts the idea of a meritocracy].
    All that and you didn't even touch on the primary reasons Canada's debt is shrinking and they're able to fund their social welfare systems.

    Small relative population and they sell A LOT of oil.

    Class hierarchy is just another liberal construct used to divert and divide.

    The current "hierarchy" is far better than to two class system Obama and the progressives support.

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    Re: Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

    The US Treasury keeps printing and the private Corporation, the Federal Reserve Bank?, keeps buying. ) 0 % ( interest investments for a bank. Somethng smells like fish. China just closed a deal with Brazil to trade "reals" and "rinminbi" and use same for trade. Now that means Brazil's OIL will now not need dollars to go to China. Will that decrease demand for the US Dollar? Perhaps that will effect that 0 % interest. Don't you think? Would the Chinese prefer one trillion dollar US coins? For trade simplification. Even Brazil. Sounds like they prefer reals and renminbis for real money transactions. Does this lack of desirability of the US Dollar relate to interest rates, or not?

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