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Thread: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

  1. #61
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Perhaps the more important part is how that decision was made, who was being killed, and why. I was not at all pleased with the decision to assassinate an American citizen without judicial oversight.
    I agree very much on this.
    However, I do have some qualms about increased used of drones in warfare. I think it dehumanizes the process. Let's say some day we can replace ground combat troops with robots too. Now we have a scenario where we can fight with zero casualties for us. So what's the big deal about going to war? Let's invade everybody! All the while forgetting that there is a serious and terrible human cost to warfare. As awful as it sounds to say, casualties on our side serve a very necessary purpose of reminding us that war is an absolutely horrific process that we should be avoiding at all cost.
    I dislike slippery slope reasoning. I dislike being tossed about by emotion driven arguments, that somehow a particular tool doing the task makes a moral difference.

    But I really have not found it in myself to disagree that the distance we put between our decision and the outcome carries a huge risk of our society/country losing sight of the weight of that outcome. There is far too much in our nature that drives us to sweep those outcomes under the rug and out of mind, even non-government agents ( Apple Rejects App That Tracks U.S. Drone Strikes | Danger Room | Wired.com ). So ultimately I share these deep qualms about this use of the drones, certainly as we presently handle them and talk about them. That the short-term benefit, and there is no denying that it exists, will come with so very unpleasant longterm ramifications.

    Obama is young enough, too, that he just might live to see in-person the reaping of the ill crop from what his administration is sowing here.
    Last edited by Dwight; 01-08-13 at 12:01 AM.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Do you understand that these people do no qualify for treatment as prisoners of war? That they have no rights? Have you read the Geneva Conventions?
    So which category of humans is it that has no rights?

    Under which legal document do you find this rather bizarre doctrine?

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, that doesn't quite cover it. We're not really at war with any nation. Hence, such a reading would not apply.
    Precisely!

    In fact, we have been committing 'military aggression' for AT LEAST 11 years now, and that is illegal under international law.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    So which category of humans is it that has no rights?

    Under which legal document do you find this rather bizarre doctrine?
    Get back to me after you have read the GC.
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Not at all. They are illegal combatants, and the GC allows summary execution for them. Although there is no reason they cannot be questioned first...
    "While the concept of an unlawful combatant is included in the Third Geneva Convention, the phrase itself does not appear in the document.[1] Article 4 of Third Geneva Convention does describe categories under which a person may be entitled to POW status; and there are other international treaties that deny lawful combatant status for mercenaries and children. In the United States, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 codified the legal definition of this term and invested the U.S. President with broad discretion to determine whether a person may be designated an unlawful enemy combatant under United States law. The assumption that such a category as unlawful combatant exists is not contradicted by the findings of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Celebici Judgment. The judgment quoted the 1958 ICRC commentary on the Fourth Geneva Convention: Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law,"[4] because in the opinion of the ICRC, "If civilians directly engage in hostilities, they are considered 'unlawful' or 'unprivileged' combatants or belligerents (the treaties of humanitarian law do not expressly contain these terms). They may be prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action".[1][5]".Wikipedia

    "Unlawful Combatants. Unlawful combatants are individuals who directly participate in hostilities without being authorized by governmental authority or under international law to do so. For example, bandits who rob and plunder and civilians who attack a downed airman are unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who engage in hostilities violate LOAC and become lawful targets. They may be killed or wounded and, if captured, may be tried as war criminals for their LOAC violations." About.com

    Note the phrase "directly participate in hostilities." This suggests that if someone is attacking you, you can shoot back. It does not suggest that someone who is not actively engaged in hostilities can be murdered or imprisoned without POW status or a trial for their crimes. The USA's Military Commissions Act of 2006 may contradict my understanding of international law and human decency, but that doesn't make it right. Morals, if not the law, require a fair criminal trial to determine whether someone was "directly participate in hostilities" when it is not an obvious situation such a gunfight.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 01-08-13 at 03:59 PM.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns - The Washington Post



    The Administration has resisted putting any more terrorists in Gitmo, so the alternatives become killing them outright, as in drone attacks, or rendition. Congress has resisted the administration's plan to detain these people in civilian jails and prisons and try them in civilian courts. There is no Senator who welcomes such prisoners in his or her state's courts and prisons.

    The other aspect of this particular case is the fact that the three men in question have never had anything to do with the US and were not planning to come to the US or attack the US. They are being prosecuted under a doctrine of universal jurisdiction -- the idea that the US can prosecute criminals that commit crimes anywhere in the world even if they have nothing to do with the US.

    Article One of the Constitution allows for prosecution of criminals anywhere in the world who commit crimes recognized as "offenses against the law of nations." What these men are alleged to have done does not fall into that rubric. They were merely participating in a foreign civil war.
    Talk about pre 911 thinking. You actually believe that these terrorist groups do not plot against and try to kill US citizens?

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So... you conservative lot are now against renditions but under Bush you were for them?

    And for the record... I passionately believe it is a crime what the US is doing and have been doing. Obama and his administration should be ashamed .. but then again they are just using the tools that the Bush administration put in place.
    I don't really care what happens to these Sharia lunatic terrorists - string them up right now and get it over with.

    As far as "their rights" they have none as far as I'm concerned.

    The truth is I don't think people realize how much these Islamic extremists actually hate us (and all non-Muslims in general). It's only a matter of time before Egypt, Libya and Iran team up to attack Israel or the US. They wouldn't care if their lands were destroyed in the process because dying to them in the name of Islam is an honor, so they could care less if they get erased by a counterstrike.

    IMO, it is certainly a means of defense to keep these lunatics from growing and conspiring.

    As for the terrorists in GETMO - like I said - string them up.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Note the phrase "directly participate in hostilities." This suggests that if someone is attacking you, you can shoot back. It does not suggest that someone who is not actively engaged in hostilities can be murdered or imprisoned without POW status or a trial for their crimes. The USA's Military Commissions Act of 2006 may contradict my understanding of international law and human decency, but that doesn't make it right. Morals, if not the law, require a fair criminal trial to determine whether someone was "directly participate in hostilities" when it is not an obvious situation such a gunfight.
    Do I have to wait for him to shoot first? Do I have to wait until the IED goes off, or the plane hits the building? Does "due process" on the battlefield necessarily require judicial process? If the bastard is firing on my mates (and not directly at me, yet) do I really have to go to court for authorization to shoot the s.o.b. or is my direct observation enough to convict him of "directly participating in hostilities" and justify my blowing him away?

    There actually was a case like this near the end of WWII. It involved house-to-house fighting, a German soldier threw a grenade into the street at the Allied forces and as soon as the shrapnel settled he ran out with his hands up trying to surrender. The GIs executed the unarmed man on the spot and were court martialed for it. They were acquitted, although the court did not precisely define the length of time that should have passed in order to consider him a noncombatant entitled to judicial process.

    "Moral behavior" sometimes requires that you eliminate the scum without benefit of judicial review.
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I don't really care what happens to these Sharia lunatic terrorists - string them up right now and get it over with.

    As far as "their rights" they have none as far as I'm concerned.

    The truth is I don't think people realize how much these Islamic extremists actually hate us (and all non-Muslims in general). It's only a matter of time before Egypt, Libya and Iran team up to attack Israel or the US. They wouldn't care if their lands were destroyed in the process because dying to them in the name of Islam is an honor, so they could care less if they get erased by a counterstrike.

    IMO, it is certainly a means of defense to keep these lunatics from growing and conspiring.

    As for the terrorists in GETMO - like I said - string them up.
    Agreed. After thousands of years of domestication, there is still only one way to deal with a mad dog. Although if you can get him to tell you where the rest of the pack is, so much the better.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Agreed. After thousands of years of domestication, there is still only one way to deal with a mad dog. Although if you can get him to tell you where the rest of the pack is, so much the better.
    I've always thought we should a) microchip them and have them lead us to their "camps" or b) just string them up.

    The microchipping route seems to be the most logical.

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