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Thread: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

  1. #201
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I prefer to stick to the here and now if you don't mind...You want to defend Islamic Jihadist killing of today by comparing it to Christian crusades of hundreds of years ago...Sorry dude, that doesn't even make sense to do that....Try again.
    If you mean to imply that forced conversion is an inherent part of Islam and more then it is of any other religion then you need to look at the historical record, if not, then again tell me which Islamic country practices forced conversion?

    And please tell me where i defend jihadist killings.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    If you mean to imply that forced conversion is an inherent part of Islam and more then it is of any other religion then you need to look at the historical record, if not, then again tell me which Islamic country practices forced conversion?

    And please tell me where i defend jihadist killings.
    Instead of looking at historical records why not examine contemporary records that effect lives today? Or are you saying that because it happened historically it should be accepted now?

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Instead of looking at historical records why not examine contemporary records that effect lives today? Or are you saying that because it happened historically it should be accepted now?
    The very first question i asked was what state practices forced conversion today, is that not contemporary enough for you?

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    If you mean to imply that forced conversion is an inherent part of Islam and more then it is of any other religion then you need to look at the historical record, if not, then again tell me which Islamic country practices forced conversion?

    And please tell me where i defend jihadist killings.

    Are you kidding me with this?

    Indonesia

    In 2001 the Indonesian army evacuated hundreds of Christian refugees from the remote Kesui and Teor islands in Maluku (province) after the refugees stated that they had been forced to convert to Islam. According to reports, some of the men had been circumcised against their will, and a paramilitary group involved in the incident confirmed that circumcisions had taken place while denying any element of coercion.[57]

    Middle-East

    In 2004 Coptic Christians in Egypt occupied the main Coptic cathedral in Cairo for several days, angry at the disappearance of a priest's wife in a village in the Nile delta, who, they alleged, had been forced to convert to Islam. The BBC reported that allegations of forced conversions of Copts to Islam surface every year in Egypt.[58]
    Other notables among these have been the cases of Iraq's Mandaeans,[59] Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Christians, Christians of Pakistan[60] and Assyrian Christians of Iraq[61][62][63] who have faced coercion to convert to Islam.[64][65]

    In 2006 two journalists of the Fox News Network had been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint. After conversion they were made to read statements on videotape proclaiming that they had converted, after which they were released by their captors.[66]

    There have been numerous reports of Islamic attempts to forcibly convert religious minorities in Iraq. In Baghdad, Christians have been told to convert to Islam, pay the jizya or die.[67][68][69] In March 2007 the BBC reported that people in the Mandaean religious minority in Iraq alleged that they were being targeted by Islamist insurgents, who offered them the choice of conversion or death.[70]

    India

    In Jammu & Kashmir, the Ladakh Buddhist Association has said: "There is a deliberate and organised design to convert Kargil's Buddhists to Islam. In the last four years, about 50 girls and married women with children were taken and converted from village Wakha alone. If this continues unchecked, we fear that Buddhists will be wiped out from Kargil in the next two decades or so. Anyone objecting to such allurement and conversions is harassed."[71][72]

    Pakistan

    Around 25 Hindu girls are abducted every month and converted to Islam forcibly in Pakistan, as reported by Pakistani media.[73] In May 2007, members of the Christian community of Charsadda in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan, close to the border of Afghanistan, reported that they had received letters threatening bombings if they did not convert to Islam, and that the police were not taking their fears seriously.[74] In June 2009, International Christian Concern (ICC) reported the rape and killing of a Christian man in Pakistan, for refusing to convert to Islam.[75]

    Rinkle Kumari, a 19 year Pakistani student, Dr. Lata Kumari, and Asha Kumari, a Hindu working in a beauty parlor, were allegedly forced to convert from Hindu to Islam.[76][77] Their cases were appealed all the way to the Supreme Court of Pakistan where they said that they wanted to live with their parents and not their 'so called' husbands.[78] The court issued a verdict that they had decided to stay with her husband.

    Somalia

    In August 2009, ICC reported that four Christians working to help orphans in Somalia were beheaded by Islamist extremists when they refused to convert to Islam.[79]

    Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For your education....

    The Qur'an:
    Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran

    Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...".

    Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below. Islam sanctions violence as a means of coercing religion.

    Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.

    Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."


    From the Hadith:

    Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat." The first part of this condition is the Shahada, or profession of faith in Islam. Violence is sanctioned until the victims embrace Muhammad's religion.

    Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them" Osama bin Laden echoes this order from his prophet: "Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in Islam … . Either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.” (source: The al-Qaeda Reader p. 19-20)

    Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

    Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

    Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

    Bukhari (60:80) - "The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.' means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

    Bukhari (60:40) - "...:And fight them till there is no more affliction (i.e. no more worshiping of others along with Allah)." 'Affliction' of Muslims is explicitly defined here being a condition in which others worship a different god other than Allah. Muslims are commanded to use violence to 'rectify' the situation.

    Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.

    Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. The text goes on to say that Khalid taught the al-Harith about Islam after their "conversion," proving that it was based on fear of slaughter rather than a free and intelligent decision.

    Ibn Kathir (Commenting on Quran 2:256, which says "let there be no compulsion in religion") - "Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the jizya, they should be fought till they are killed."

    Islam and Forced Conversion
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    The very first question i asked was what state practices forced conversion today, is that not contemporary enough for you?
    J-Mac responded to your post and included details which should be known by everyone who involves themselves in these debates. Why involve yourself without doing some basic research on the subject?

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    J-Mac responded to your post and included details which should be known by everyone who involves themselves in these debates. Why involve yourself without doing some basic research on the subject?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    The very first question i asked was what state practices forced conversion today, is that not contemporary enough for you?
    Again what I'm looking for is evidence that this forms some inherent part of the Islamic mainstream, I normally ask about election results but the silence is too deafening. I've also got to ask my Jmac thinks that the christian crusades took place in 1930s Spain.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Again what I'm looking for is evidence that this forms some inherent part of the Islamic mainstream, I normally ask about election results but the silence is too deafening. I've also got to ask my Jmac thinks that the christian crusades took place in 1930s Spain.
    You must be aware of of non-Muslims being murdered for their religion, or lack of it. Do you think these murderers are ever punished by the state? Why do you suppose those who burn down Churches, burn down the homes of Christiana, etc, are seldom, if ever, punished?

    Muslim Publics Divided on Hamas and Hezbollah | Pew Global Attitudes Project

    While it is claimed that some of these Islamic States are democracies it is a case where the electorate will have to vote for the Muslim of ther choice, others need not apply.

    Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and not because it is all about peace, love, or human rights and dignity.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Well, all I know is that I have embraced my inner coward, and I am scared silly of a muslim. Any muslim. Somehow or other they possess superhuman strength, and intelligence, and they are tricky as all get out. Must be the religion, I guess. That Allah fellow must have had some direct line to Heaven, eh?

    But, I know my government will protect me from them, by molesting grandmothers and children in airport lines, and reading everybody's emails. I feel better already.

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