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Thread: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

  1. #11
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Obama is W 2.0. Always has been.
    I've said the exact same thing. The people who love Obama....don't understand why they hate Bush. And vice-vesa. Peas in a pod...the fascist pod of American authoritarianism; but the same pod none the less.
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So... you conservative lot are now against renditions but under Bush you were for them?

    And for the record... I passionately believe it is a crime what the US is doing and have been doing. Obama and his administration should be ashamed .. but then again they are just using the tools that the Bush administration put in place.
    Kudos to you for being consistent where so many are not.

    I thought that Bush had the authority to do this and that Obama is acting within the law also. I mention it more to point out the fact that, on the legal question, Obama agrees that you guys were wrong the whole time.

    Of course, Obama is still not using the interrogation methods that liberals objected to with Bush. Either that or he is keeping it secret. Regardless, he will use them if the need arises, mark my words. Besides, which is worse, harsh interrogation or blasting people, including any innocent people standing around, into tiny bits with a drone missile? If the President can do the latter with a clear conscience then I hardly see how he'd have a problem with the former.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    What I want to know is when we decided that terrorists were supervillains that can't be trusted to our normal justice system.
    Do you understand the difference between a criminal act and an act of war?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    What I want to know is when we decided that terrorists were supervillains that can't be trusted to our normal justice system. When they talked about 9/11 trials for Al-Qaeda members being held in New York, people freaked out. We can't have the trial in Manhattan! Why the **** not? These guys are backwater murdering assholes with rifles and crappy homemade bombs, not Lex Luthor. A robot army is not going to crash through the wall in the middle of a trial and free them. There's Ocean's Eleven plan to bust them out of prison.

    So why can't we put them on trial and toss them in prison alongside every other murderer? They don't deserve special treatment. Treating them specially just gives the impression that they are special.
    The why is simple. Civilian rules of evidence, constitutional safeguards, like habeus corpus, and presumption of innocence don't apply under the rules of a military tribunal.

    As a practical matter it means easier convictions without having to disclose evidence that the government doesn't want disclose or perhaps doesn't even possess.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    The why is simple. Civilian rules of evidence, constitutional safeguards, like habeus corpus, and presumption of innocence don't apply under the rules of a military tribunal.

    As a practical matter it means easier convictions without having to disclose evidence that the government doesn't want disclose or perhaps doesn't even possess.
    It can be done, or they can be treated like actual prisoners of war, following such rules of conduct. Too often we have abused people who were neither soldiers nor criminals, neither terrorist nor enemy combatants. The point of rule of law is largely to limit the number of such mistakes.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Do you understand the difference between a criminal act and an act of war?
    18 USC § 2331 defines the terms. Acts of terrorism are not acts of war.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    The why is simple. Civilian rules of evidence, constitutional safeguards, like habeus corpus, and presumption of innocence don't apply under the rules of a military tribunal.

    As a practical matter it means easier convictions without having to disclose evidence that the government doesn't want disclose or perhaps doesn't even possess.
    They probably would not be able to get convinctions in a civil trial because so much of the evidence is foreign intelligence, which can't be disclosed without also disclosing means and methods, and because it's not admissible under rules of evidence.

    And they don't want those guys in civilian prisons where they can mix with the population there and preach jihad. Also, those guys usually try to turn their trials into propaganda for Al Qaeda and themselves into martyrs.

    As foreign combatants they don't have a right to a trial in any particular form. The President has the authority to treat them in whatever way seems in the best interest of the US. Obama wants to try them in civilian courts because he thinks that's the way it should be done. I suppose this has more with the US being precieved as fair. But the fact that he can just execute them summarily by drone attack shows how wrong that people who think a civilian trial is a legal requirement are.
    Last edited by LowDown; 01-03-13 at 05:40 PM.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So... you conservative lot are now against renditions but under Bush you were for them?

    And for the record... I passionately believe it is a crime what the US is doing and have been doing. Obama and his administration should be ashamed .. but then again they are just using the tools that the Bush administration put in place.
    I agree that general conservative interest is likely political here, but the fact that democrats, liberals, and progressives now support such programs, in the majority, is likely political, as well. Sad that both sides view the issue as nothing more than political fodder

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I agree that general conservative interest is likely political here, but the fact that democrats, liberals, and progressives now support such programs, in the majority, is likely political, as well. Sad that both sides view the issue as nothing more than political fodder
    I'm not, convinced that progressives, let alone liberals support it. There is just not so much wrong coming at them. Rendition was not the only issue Bush presented us with. And time often tempers dissent.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Do you understand the difference between a criminal act and an act of war?
    Do you understand that these people are not being treated as prisoners of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I agree that general conservative interest is likely political here, but the fact that democrats, liberals, and progressives now support such programs, in the majority, is likely political, as well. Sad that both sides view the issue as nothing more than political fodder
    Have you ever seen a liberal say they actually support this?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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