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Thread: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is that supported and encouraged by the laws where you live?



    Of course the most important part of this is that it does no harm to others. This is not the case in Islam.



    So because you have read nothing on the issue, and apparently have not done any research, you feel the Christians support torture? You will not even give them the benefit of any doubt?

    These attempts at comparing Christianity and Islam is as foolish as comparing Islam with Atheism or Buddhism. Islam stands alone and you should recognize that.
    What does the law matter? It is against the law to torture, if one considers the Nuremberg Principle to be valid, yet lawyers in the highest office in the land, and some posters, say that ain't so.

    Oh, but there IS harm done to others, but maybe it's just that you are not aware of it. Generalizing here, but it's amazing how many of the nutcases eventually caught with bodies buried in their backyards are religious zealots. The history of religious zealots of all persuasions waging wars for crazy religious dogma reasons is well documented. Ignore it at your own peril.

    I have observed that no church has come out condemning torture. I have personally asked several members of several different churches what they think about torture. Does that count as research? The silence and body language tells the whole story. Perhaps you could reference or link a public statement condemning the practice by any church in the last 10 years?

    Islam does not stand alone. You have been conditioned to believe that nonsense, but that does not make it so.

    I will say that in general the Eastern (oriental) religions stand out distinctly different from the Judeo Christian varieties, but Islam falls in with the violent histories of the Judeo Christian traditions. It does not resemble any of the eastern religions. The judeo-christian-muslim religions pay lip service to nonviolence and peace and harmony, but their actions do not often match their words.

    The eastern religions seem to follow their philosophy with their actions.

  2. #182
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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    What does the law matter? It is against the law to torture, if one considers the Nuremberg Principle to be valid, yet lawyers in the highest office in the land, and some posters, say that ain't so.

    Oh, but there IS harm done to others, but maybe it's just that you are not aware of it. Generalizing here, but it's amazing how many of the nutcases eventually caught with bodies buried in their backyards are religious zealots. The history of religious zealots of all persuasions waging wars for crazy religious dogma reasons is well documented. Ignore it at your own peril.

    I have observed that no church has come out condemning torture. I have personally asked several members of several different churches what they think about torture. Does that count as research? The silence and body language tells the whole story. Perhaps you could reference or link a public statement condemning the practice by any church in the last 10 years?

    Islam does not stand alone. You have been conditioned to believe that nonsense, but that does not make it so.

    I will say that in general the Eastern (oriental) religions stand out distinctly different from the Judeo Christian varieties, but Islam falls in with the violent histories of the Judeo Christian traditions. It does not resemble any of the eastern religions. The judeo-christian-muslim religions pay lip service to nonviolence and peace and harmony, but their actions do not often match their words.

    The eastern religions seem to follow their philosophy with their actions.
    Not quite true concerning churches:


    Pope denounces torture during Guatemala mass / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    What does the law matter?
    You made the claim that "No, 'round here we drag gays behind pickup trucks". I asked if that was encouraged or supported by the State and you say. "What does the law matter?"??

    It is against the law to torture, if one considers the Nuremberg Principle to be valid, yet lawyers in the highest office in the land, and some posters, say that ain't so.
    What does the Nuremberg trials have to do with dragging people behind pickup trucks?

    Oh, but there IS harm done to others, but maybe it's just that you are not aware of it. Generalizing here, but it's amazing how many of the nutcases eventually caught with bodies buried in their backyards are religious zealots. The history of religious zealots of all persuasions waging wars for crazy religious dogma reasons is well documented. Ignore it at your own peril.
    Yes, and speaking of Muslims, let's not forget their treatment of women, little girls and Gays.

    I have observed that no church has come out condemning torture.
    How did you observe a negative?
    I have personally asked several members of several different churches what they think about torture. Does that count as research?
    No, it doesn't

    The silence and body language tells the whole story.
    Yes, they were hoping to politely ignore you.

    Perhaps you could reference or link a public statement condemning the practice by any church in the last 10 years?
    Perhaps, but don't wait up.

    Islam does not stand alone. You have been conditioned to believe that nonsense, but that does not make it so.
    Who or what does it stand with?

    I will say that in general the Eastern (oriental) religions stand out distinctly different from the Judeo Christian varieties, but Islam falls in with the violent histories of the Judeo Christian traditions. It does not resemble any of the eastern religions. The judeo-christian-muslim religions pay lip service to nonviolence and peace and harmony, but their actions do not often match their words.
    I can see you put a lot of study and thought into this.
    The eastern religions seem to follow their philosophy with their actions.
    Yes, it seems so.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Thank you sir, for that information.

    Now, if a few churches in the US would also speak out I might be convinced. Absent that, my cynical view would be take the Pope's comments as some sort of lip service.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Grant

    No, it is against the law to drag people behind pickup trucks. It is also against the law to torture. We have at least 1 prosecution for the former offense, and a few for the latter at Abu Ghraib. But for the most part, nobody is prosecuted for torture. Bradley Manning was tortured and is also being prosecuted for exposing the crimes of government. The President had found him guilty before a trial.

    So the rhetorical question still stands: what does the law matter?

    Yes, muslims treat gays and women poorly too. Christians burns heretics and witches at the stake. Remind me of which is the more civilized group, please.

    It is not difficult to observe a negative. For example, today I observe there is not a hurricane in the Bahamas. How difficult is that? I have observed that the christians I associate with are most uncomfortable discussing torture. That is a positive. Nor are they comfortable dealing with what appears to be absolute silence on the matter by their pastor from the pulpit. He may rage on about political candidates, but not a word about man's inhumanity to man. Nobody was politely ignoring me, they simply wished the subject to be changed.

    Is that a negative or a positive?

    No sir, I will not hold my breath, waiting for you to provide any quotes from churches condemning torture. Boo Radley did, and I'm happy to stand corrected on that matter, but from a Pope who condones child abuse by his priests, I find his single comment to be a bit more like lip service than any strenuous objection.

    With whom does islam stand? Depends upon the qualifications to be counted in whatever group one is trying to define. If one talks about lip service to peace and humanity, it stands with all the other religions. If one is talking about practicing violence and torture, it certainly stands with our Judeo Christian heritage, but it is interesting that of the few people captured by islamists and held as ransome or otherwise, including Richard what's his name of NBC that was captured last month, or Jessica Lynch, or numerous others over the years, they are not treated badly. Certainly not as badly as our prisoners.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Grant

    No, it is against the law to drag people behind pickup trucks.
    Then why bring it up as well as mislead?

    It is also against the law to torture. We have at least 1 prosecution for the former offense, and a few for the latter at Abu Ghraib. But for the most part, nobody is prosecuted for torture. Bradley Manning was tortured and is also being prosecuted for exposing the crimes of government. The President had found him guilty before a trial.
    You will need to supply evidence of whatever you claim you make
    So the rhetorical question still stands: what does the law matter?
    If it didn't matter you probably wouldn't be sitting at your computer.

    Yes, muslims treat gays and women poorly too.
    Too? Who else treats women and Gays the way Muslims do?

    Christians burns heretics and witches at the stake. Remind me of which is the more civilized group, please.
    You have to go back hundreds of years for your example whereas I only need refer to todays news. There is nothing we can do about history but there are things we can do today. The first is to face reality.

    It is not difficult to observe a negative. For example, today I observe there is not a hurricane in the Bahamas. How difficult is that? I have observed that the christians I associate with are most uncomfortable discussing torture. That is a positive. Nor are they comfortable dealing with what appears to be absolute silence on the matter by their pastor from the pulpit. He may rage on about political candidates, but not a word about man's inhumanity to man. Nobody was politely ignoring me, they simply wished the subject to be changed.

    Is that a negative or a positive?
    I will positively ignore this. It is too silly for comment

    No sir, I will not hold my breath, waiting for you to provide any quotes from churches condemning torture. Boo Radley did, and I'm happy to stand corrected on that matter, but from a Pope who condones child abuse by his priests, I find his single comment to be a bit more like lip service than any strenuous objection.
    The Pope condones child abuse?? Again, leftists always have to have unbiased sources for whatever they claim, otherwise, like you, they will lie.

    With whom does islam stand? Depends upon the qualifications to be counted in whatever group one is trying to define. If one talks about lip service to peace and humanity, it stands with all the other religions. If one is talking about practicing violence and torture, it certainly stands with our Judeo Christian heritage, but it is interesting that of the few people captured by islamists and held as ransome or otherwise, including Richard what's his name of NBC that was captured last month, or Jessica Lynch, or numerous others over the years, they are not treated badly. Certainly not as badly as our prisoners.
    He's one of your own, Lefties. How can you explain this?

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    What I want to know is when we decided that terrorists were supervillains that can't be trusted to our normal justice system.

    ....

    So why can't we put them on trial and toss them in prison alongside every other murderer? They don't deserve special treatment. Treating them specially just gives the impression that they are special.
    The government wouldn't want them airing the dirty laundry of multiple administrations going back decades. That was where the real "security threat" resided.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    [QUOTE=Grant;1061355389]

    Then why bring it up as well as mislead?



    You will need to supply evidence of whatever you claim you make


    If it didn't matter you probably wouldn't be sitting at your computer.



    Too? Who else treats women and Gays the way Muslims do?



    You have to go back hundreds of years for your example whereas I only need refer to todays news. There is nothing we can do about history but there are things we can do today. The first is to face reality.



    I will positively ignore this. It is too silly for comment



    The Pope condones child abuse?? Again, leftists always have to have unbiased sources for whatever they claim, otherwise, like you, they will lie.



    He's one of your own, Lefties. How can you explain this?
    I was raised in the Roman Church and was still serving mass at age 21. Never once was I bothered by any priest, but if one reads the papers enough, it appears I may have been the exception rather than the rule. If you personally happen to be unaware of the crisis within the Church, that sir is a personal problem, not mine.

    And you may be also uninformed about the actions of the US government regarding human rights and wars of aggression. Uninformed, or in denial. Either way, I've better things to do than make small talk with you.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post

    I was raised in the Roman Church and was still serving mass at age 21. Never once was I bothered by any priest, but if one reads the papers enough, it appears I may have been the exception rather than the rule. If you personally happen to be unaware of the crisis within the Church, that sir is a personal problem, not mine.

    Was it during this period that you were informed about "the Pope who condones child abuse by his priests"?

    I have never heard of such a thing. Where is your source, please.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Was it during this period that you were informed about "the Pope who condones child abuse by his priests"?

    I have never heard of such a thing. Where is your source, please.
    In order to understand that statement Grant, you must understand that for decades, or perhaps longer, the Church (the Pope is its head) has not punished pedophiles and sexual predators. Indeed, some have been promoted, while others are simply moved to other locations within the church.

    In my book, if one does not punish criminal behavior when one is in a position to do so, with a presumed obligation to do so, then one condones and enables such behavior. Now maybe I'm just a bit strange in holding to that position....

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