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Thread: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    In addition to innocent detainees who have been tortured to death, in CIA custody, or in military custody, and an unknown number of additional prisoners who are held by the United States in various undisclosed locations around the world, the US currently house 131 detainees in their Guantanamo Bay gulag who are not party to any criminal charges or investigations whatsoever, (innocent), a facility in which the United States have since admitted they used torture.

    The "battlefield" does not constitute the whole world. In fact, a "battlefield" as its name implies, is where armed combat occurs. Combatants are those engaged in armed warfare. Abducted persons from non-belligerent countries do not classify, in any definition, as a "combatant" or a POW. Nevertheless, contrary to assertions made by the executive branch, the Supreme Court have ruled that their prisoners in Guantanamo Bay shall at least be afforded protections under the Geneva Conventions Common Article III, while they have not however broached the topic of the other prisoners in other locations.

    Additionally, the "War on Terror", while making a great buzzword and catchphrase, is not legally classified as an "armed conflict" per any of the Hague or Geneva Convention treaties, nor is it a war legally declared by the US congress pursuant to Article I of the US constitution.

    The continued policy for these unlawful detentions undermine US credibility, especially in their aim to preach human rights to other nations, breed continued resentment towards the United States which can lead to further recruitment in terrorist organizations, and of course, most importantly, constitute an egregious moral outrage, in my opinion.

    Most importantly, these unjustified incarcerations violate the fifth amendment of the US bill of rights, which states that "No person...shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So your argument is that there were some nice Nazis?

    What does that mean? We should have left them alone?
    I was not offering argument just sharing. If I were to make an argument I suppose it would be that some of them were just doing their job or defending their nation in the same way our soldiers do ours. Not every southern soldier in the civil war was likewise fighting for slavery. History likes to skip right over nuance to make whatever political point the writers want to make. Some people are too quick to let them do it as you have reminded me.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I understand what you're saying. No, I'm 65 and have been aware for years that true bad guys exist.

    Whether christian, muslim, jewish or otherwise, I understand that most are fine, but it is a certainty that certain elements of all religions practice violence, hatred and intolerance.

    No, every individual must be judged separate from the crowd.
    Well there was a crowd of Nazis who were invading their neighbors, murdering Jews and fighting the Allies and we didn't judge them separately. The same holds true for the Fascists. Sometimes otherwise nice people can be quite pleasant racists, sexists or communists but will also more likely be judged on their strong ideologies.

    No other religion in the world today is practicing violence, hatred and intolerance as much as Muslims. You must know that is true.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Well there was a crowd of Nazis who were invading their neighbors, murdering Jews and fighting the Allies and we didn't judge them separately. The same holds true for the Fascists. Sometimes otherwise nice people can be quite pleasant racists, sexists or communists but will also more likely be judged on their strong ideologies.

    No other religion in the world today is practicing violence, hatred and intolerance as much as Muslims. You must know that is true.
    Some sects of the Catholics, which I was raised, practice self-flaggelation. Most christians today in the US condone torture. How much violence do you want? No, the Inquisition is over, I know, but the history of war in the name of religion is as old as religion.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Some sects of the Catholics, which I was raised, practice self-flaggelation. Most christians today in the US condone torture. How much violence do you want? No, the Inquisition is over, I know, but the history of war in the name of religion is as old as religion.

    Do Christians in this country demand that you either convert to Christianity, pay a tax, or be killed?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by SJ-10 View Post
    In addition to innocent detainees who have been tortured to death, in CIA custody, or in military custody, and an unknown number of additional prisoners who are held by the United States in various undisclosed locations around the world, the US currently house 131 detainees in their Guantanamo Bay gulag who are not party to any criminal charges or investigations whatsoever, (innocent), a facility in which the United States have since admitted they used torture.
    So you think detaining someone against their will is in fact torture?

    The "battlefield" does not constitute the whole world. In fact, a "battlefield" as its name implies, is where armed combat occurs. Combatants are those engaged in armed warfare. Abducted persons from non-belligerent countries do not classify, in any definition, as a "combatant" or a POW. Nevertheless, contrary to assertions made by the executive branch, the Supreme Court have ruled that their prisoners in Guantanamo Bay shall at least be afforded protections under the Geneva Conventions Common Article III, while they have not however broached the topic of the other prisoners in other locations.
    A battlefield, as its name implies, is where a battle takes place. On 9/11, lower Manhattan became a battlefield along with a field in Pennsylvania and the Pentagon. With the jihadi scum, the whole world has become a battlefield and we will kill them where ever we can find them.

    Additionally, the "War on Terror", while making a great buzzword and catchphrase, is not legally classified as an "armed conflict" per any of the Hague or Geneva Convention treaties, nor is it a war legally declared by the US congress pursuant to Article I of the US constitution.
    That is mere legal parsing, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.

    The continued policy for these unlawful detentions undermine US credibility, especially in their aim to preach human rights to other nations, breed continued resentment towards the United States which can lead to further recruitment in terrorist organizations, and of course, most importantly, constitute an egregious moral outrage, in my opinion.
    I partially agree with you here. Rather than continued detention, the detainees should be hanged (or ritually beheaded on videotape, according to their custom) forthwith - as permitted by the GC.

    Most importantly, these unjustified incarcerations violate the fifth amendment of the US bill of rights, which states that "No person...shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
    That's for US citizens, not the war criminals currently detained.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Some sects of the Catholics, which I was raised, practice self-flaggelation.
    Sounds shaky but that is "self" flagellation. They are not shooting little girls through the head or hanging Gays from lampposts.
    Most christians today in the US condone torture.
    Do you have evidence of this, and what sort of torture you might be talking about? Have you ever heard of Muslims torturing and/or beheading innocent people?

    How much violence do you want?
    None. But i would certainly approve of responding to it.
    No, the Inquisition is over, I know, but the history of war in the name of religion is as old as religion.
    We are in the present and have to deal with that. Rationalizing the murder of innocent people only advances the cause of extremism.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    So you think detaining someone against their will is in fact torture?
    No.

    A battlefield, as its name implies, is where a battle takes place. On 9/11, lower Manhattan became a battlefield along with a field in Pennsylvania and the Pentagon. With the jihadi scum, the whole world has become a battlefield and we will kill them where ever we can find them.
    I'm referring to the places where the detainees are abducted from. They weren't taken from ground zero.

    That is mere legal parsing, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.
    That's the point. The "war on terror" signifies nothing. It is neither an armed conflict as recognized by international law or a legally sanctioned war approved by the US congress.

    I partially agree with you here. Rather than continued detention, the detainees should be hanged (or ritually beheaded on videotape, according to their custom) forthwith - as permitted by the GC.
    It is not at all permitted by the GC.. Again, common article 3 strictly prohibits:

    "(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;"

    to those "hors de combat" (no longer engaged in combat).

    That's for US citizens, not the war criminals currently detained.
    It says "no person" not "no citizen". The constitution clearly distinguishes when they refer to a person, or a citizen, such as in the right to become president or vice president in Article II.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Sounds shaky but that is "self" flagellation. They are not shooting little girls through the head or hanging Gays from lampposts.


    Do you have evidence of this, and what sort of torture you might be talking about? Have you ever heard of Muslims torturing and/or beheading innocent people?

    None. But i would certainly approve of responding to it.


    We are in the present and have to deal with that. Rationalizing the murder of innocent people only advances the cause of extremism.
    No, 'round here we drag gays behind pickup trucks.

    Yes, beating oneself is bizarre behavior and violence, but it harms no other person. It merely demonstrates the crazy behavior inspired by our Judeo Christian extremists.

    When I say that christianity here condones torture, I say that because of the absolute SILENCE from the pulpits and printing presses of churches in this country. With the possible exception of the Unitarian branch churches, no pastor, no church board has condemned the torture practiced by the federal government. As far as I'm concerned, if one does not condemn any immoral practice, one condones that practice.

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    Re: Renditions continue under Obama, despite due-process concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    No, 'round here we drag gays behind pickup trucks.
    Is that supported and encouraged by the laws where you live?

    Yes, beating oneself is bizarre behavior and violence, but it harms no other person. It merely demonstrates the crazy behavior inspired by our Judeo Christian extremists.
    Of course the most important part of this is that it does no harm to others. This is not the case in Islam.

    When I say that christianity here condones torture, I say that because of the absolute SILENCE from the pulpits and printing presses of churches in this country. With the possible exception of the Unitarian branch churches, no pastor, no church board has condemned the torture practiced by the federal government. As far as I'm concerned, if one does not condemn any immoral practice, one condones that practice.
    So because you have read nothing on the issue, and apparently have not done any research, you feel the Christians support torture? You will not even give them the benefit of any doubt?

    These attempts at comparing Christianity and Islam is as foolish as comparing Islam with Atheism or Buddhism. Islam stands alone and you should recognize that.

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