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60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

Given her diagnosis, the probability is that based on previous cases, people with that diagnosis at that stage of the illness will be dead within a year. There are always exceptions, but past experience says that for every 100 people in her situation, 97 of them will die in the next year. Three won't, and happily for her she was one of those three. No godlike decisions needed, it's a simple calculation, but it's never 100% accurate, which is why people are never told flatly that "X" will happen, only that it's probable.
Much like weather forecasting, they can be much more accurate the closer to the event they get. Even then, in the final stage of life, the LCP has an "escape" clause where if the patient shows improvement, they are removed from the care pathway, and treatment is reviewed.

Well my link says 10% of people survive. :shrug: They are STILL people, even with a death sentence.
 
This is ALL about saving money. When they pull crap like this, what's to stop them from withdrawing care from any other patients that are considered "terminal?" Whether or not they are old, have feeding tubes, oxygen tubes, or what not, it is STILL withholding care to save money. It is SHAMEFUL unless a patient specifically states that is his or her wishes.

It's about not prolonging the inevitable dying process unnecessarily. If I were bedridden, semi-conscious and completely dependent on others for managing all my bodily functions, with no hope of recovery, I wouldn't thank you for prolonging such an existence.
 
It's about not prolonging the inevitable dying process unnecessarily. If I were bedridden, semi-conscious and completely dependent on others for managing all my bodily functions, with no hope of recovery, I wouldn't thank you for prolonging such an existence.

Something you need to realize is that not everyone feels the way YOU do.
 
People are being put on the Liverpool Care Pathway without consent. Or at least that's what's being alleged.

My opinion: they should be told they are being put on LCP and given the chance to either get a second opinion or pay for their own care. Resources are limited. You can wish real hard that they're not, but they are. The people that have the greatest chance of full recovery so that they can continue to pay into the system should be given priority. Otherwise, the system will collapse. But of course, it already is on the verge of collapse. The funding for these ridiculous costs just isn't there. It's not fair, I know. It simply isn't fair that some people get cancer. Hell, I'll probably get cancer myself and be in this same position. However, I wont expect that anyone will give a damn.
 
Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you must be "primitives." :roll: Like it or not, all lives have a price tag on them. Even you value yourself and your family's life more than a stranger's. How much of your money would you give away to help people you don't know? The fact remains: healthcare will always be rationed according to who can pay more. Such is life.


Only if you allow pigs power. The whole point is to so arrange it that people can't buy life at other people's expense. People are not equal or unequal, because no-one knows what they are for. Everyone, therefore, deserves equal chances of life, and anyone who supposes otherwise should think carefully about his own claims to humanity.
 
Well my link says 10% of people survive. :shrug: They are STILL people, even with a death sentence.

The details don't matter, if it's ten to one or thirty to one, the probability is that more people with that illness at that stage, are likely to die than not. It's not a "death sentence", it's a prognosis. It gives the patient a statistical basis for forward planning. Would you rather not be told and arrive at your deathbed unprepared?
 
People are being put on the Liverpool Care Pathway without consent. Or at least that's what's being alleged.

Alleged is the key word, and we're not LiverPool.
 
This is ALL about saving money. When they pull crap like this, what's to stop them from withdrawing care from any other patients that are considered "terminal?" Whether or not they are old, have feeding tubes, oxygen tubes, or what not, it is STILL withholding care to save money. It is SHAMEFUL unless a patient specifically states that is his or her wishes.

Few of us here have said that what you're suggesting should be done with discussing it with the patient and/or his family. You're off on a toot somewhere arguing against something no one is arguing for.
 
My opinion: they should be told they are being put on LCP and given the chance to either get a second opinion or pay for their own care. Resources are limited. You can wish real hard that they're not, but they are. The people that have the greatest chance of full recovery so that they can continue to pay into the system should be given priority. Otherwise, the system will collapse. But of course, it already is on the verge of collapse. The funding for these ridiculous costs just isn't there. It's not fair, I know. It simply isn't fair that some people get cancer. Hell, I'll probably get cancer myself and be in this same position. However, I wont expect that anyone will give a damn.

It may all come to that. Actually, it's inevitable that it will come to something like that. But meanwhile that would represent a change of policy.

Insurance companies can refuse to fund treatments that are futile at the present time, but that doesn't include simple life sustaining care. There is only one state, Texas, where doctors can decide to withdraw life sustaining care from a patient if it is futile to continue care. (But you might have guessed. Most states are trying to abolish the death penalty. In Texas they are putting it on a fast track.)

Unless I'm mistaken, even in a Hospice they continue simple life sustaining care unless the patient refuses it.
 
It may all come to that. Actually, it's inevitable that it will come to something like that. But meanwhile that would represent a change of policy.

Insurance companies can refuse to fund treatments that are futile at the present time, but that doesn't include simple life sustaining care. There is only one state, Texas, where doctors can decide to withdraw life sustaining care from a patient if it is futile to continue care. (But you might have guessed. Most states are trying to abolish the death penalty. In Texas they are putting it on a fast track.)

Unless I'm mistaken, even in a Hospice they continue simple life sustaining care unless the patient refuses it.

Once a person has entered the hospice program, they will be kept comfortable; pain will be controlled. Nothing will be done that slows the course of their disease. They do not feed someone artifically. I'm not sure about fluids. Most people, if they have a brain cell working, have healthcare powers of attorney that cover them during this difficult time.
 
The details don't matter, if it's ten to one or thirty to one, the probability is that more people with that illness at that stage, are likely to die than not. It's not a "death sentence", it's a prognosis. It gives the patient a statistical basis for forward planning. Would you rather not be told and arrive at your deathbed unprepared?

I'll BET you wouldn't say that if it were you or one of yours! It's really a disgusting position. To hell with that 10% because we want to save money!

And your point about "not being told" is in the OP! It says that people are NOT being informed and just having their treatment and/or palliative care withdrawn.

To Maggie: It is ONLY a matter of time before they want to save money again, who's next?
 
Only if you allow pigs power. The whole point is to so arrange it that people can't buy life at other people's expense. People are not equal or unequal, because no-one knows what they are for. Everyone, therefore, deserves equal chances of life, and anyone who supposes otherwise should think carefully about his own claims to humanity.

Frankly, the bolded is what happens in government health care programs. People are buying life at the expense of others' pocketbooks.
 
Frankly, the bolded is what happens in government health care programs. People are buying life at the expense of others' pocketbooks.

No, we are looking after our brothers and sisters, all of us having paid for what is our right. Stop blathering extremist propaganda: we pay for what we get, while you are obsessed with money and spend it only on killing. Come ON!
 
Stop blathering extremist propaganda: we pay for what we get, while you are obsessed with money and spend it only on killing. Come ON!

I'll tell ya what. You refrain from trying to tell me what to say, and I'll do the same for you. 'Kay?

You can believe whatever you like, but when a government health care system is functioning, the taxpayers (most of whom are the wealthy) are paying for the health care of other people.
 
Same to you.

I am not the one telling people they should just give up and die though. I would make it THEIR decision and NOT mine, so you are wrong again.
 
Only if you allow pigs power. The whole point is to so arrange it that people can't buy life at other people's expense. People are not equal or unequal, because no-one knows what they are for. Everyone, therefore, deserves equal chances of life, and anyone who supposes otherwise should think carefully about his own claims to humanity.

It all boils down to money. Whoever has more of it gets better treatment, and those who have less do not. Until all currency is abolished, and resources are divided equally amongst everyone, this fact remains.

It may all come to that. Actually, it's inevitable that it will come to something like that. But meanwhile that would represent a change of policy.

Insurance companies can refuse to fund treatments that are futile at the present time, but that doesn't include simple life sustaining care. There is only one state, Texas, where doctors can decide to withdraw life sustaining care from a patient if it is futile to continue care. (But you might have guessed. Most states are trying to abolish the death penalty. In Texas they are putting it on a fast track.)

Unless I'm mistaken, even in a Hospice they continue simple life sustaining care unless the patient refuses it.

Hospice does not give life sustaining care. It gives comfort to the dying.

I'll BET you wouldn't say that if it were you or one of yours! It's really a disgusting position. To hell with that 10% because we want to save money!

And your point about "not being told" is in the OP! It says that people are NOT being informed and just having their treatment and/or palliative care withdrawn.

To Maggie: It is ONLY a matter of time before they want to save money again, who's next?

Please. Enough with this "you're next/who is next" mantra. Cancer patients are not being left alone to die. These are patients who are in the process of dying. Here's what you're saying: a person has been diagnosed with cancer and told they have six months to live. Off to LCP they go. This is not what is happening! These are people who are lying in a hospital bed connected to wires and tubes. Many of these people are not even conscious.
 
It all boils down to money. Whoever has more of it gets better treatment, and those who have less do not. Until all currency is abolished, and resources are divided equally amongst everyone, this fact remains.



Hospice does not give life sustaining care. It gives comfort to the dying.



Please. Enough with this "you're next/who is next" mantra. Cancer patients are not being left alone to die. These are patients who are in the process of dying. Here's what you're saying: a person has been diagnosed with cancer and told they have six months to live. Off to LCP they go. This is not what is happening! These are people who are lying in a hospital bed connected to wires and tubes. Many of these people are not even conscious.

That's not what it says in the OP. It says that many of them ARE conscious and also that they are NOT informed. When you can just put a LIFE on the back burner because people don't want to "pay," then we have LOST our humanity and our sympathy!

If someone WANTS to be put out of their misery, then that would be fine. These people either do NOT want to be, or they are not being informed, and neither are their families. Why? To save money. You can be naive and think that when they are low on funds again they won't take that a step further if you want, but when you put price tags on human beings, THAT is where you are going.
 
I'll BET you wouldn't say that if it were you or one of yours! It's really a disgusting position. To hell with that 10% because we want to save money!

And your point about "not being told" is in the OP! It says that people are NOT being informed and just having their treatment and/or palliative care withdrawn.

To Maggie: It is ONLY a matter of time before they want to save money again, who's next?

No offense, but you are reminding me why I believe men make better leaders on average. You let your emotions trump logic. Which is better, a year of happiness or thirty years of suffering?
 
That's not what it says in the OP. It says that many of them ARE conscious and also that they are NOT informed. When you can just put a LIFE on the back burner because people don't want to "pay," then we have LOST our humanity and our sympathy!

If someone WANTS to be put out of their misery, then that would be fine. These people either do NOT want to be, or they are not being informed, and neither are their families. Why? To save money. You can be naive and think that when they are low on funds again they won't take that a step further if you want, but when you put price tags on human beings, THAT is where you are going.

All of us have price tags. Two people go missing. One of them is a celebrity, and the other one is an average person with significantly less money. Which person will get more resources dedicated to finding them? Certainly not the average person who doesn't get publicity, or the funds to pay for the search. Healthcare is the same. It always boils down to money. These aren't my rules. It's just how it is.
 
Unless you are really the lowest of lowlifes you are at best hypocritical since you would all truly be the lowest pond scum if you said to your own kid: "Sorry son but I cant afford to take care of you and I dont think its anyone elses responsibility to pay for the operation so mommy and I decided to just let you die. Sorry about that but thats reality."

The reality here is that those who think it is wrong to pool together to save lives or at least make end of life better; are the same type of people that we fought wars against.
Either way that you look at it you guys are putting more value on money than human life. Individually I cannot help everyone even though I try and do what I can. Every since the first time that I spent any time at a nursing home I have made sure to at the very least show up at a nursing home on holidays. I try to go at least once a week just to communicate with the people that have no one to talk too. And some people may be surprised to learn that nursing homes also house children sometimes. But I am just an individual, but as a society we could do much better than I could ever do.

No man is left behind
When Americans Pull Together - CBS News

"Yet with the exception of a few loons and professional partisans, Americans opened their hearts and their billfolds - and they did so even though America itself is in the midst of hard times.
"


See you "loons and professional partisans" at the poles.
 
I am not the one telling people they should just give up and die though. I would make it THEIR decision and NOT mine, so you are wrong again.

Where did I give such an instruction?
 
Hospice does not give life sustaining care. It gives comfort to the dying.

They don't provide food and water? Change the bed sheets, etc.?

I don't think that's right.
 
I'll BET you wouldn't say that if it were you or one of yours! It's really a disgusting position. To hell with that 10% because we want to save money!

And your point about "not being told" is in the OP! It says that people are NOT being informed and just having their treatment and/or palliative care withdrawn.

To Maggie: It is ONLY a matter of time before they want to save money again, who's next?

It's telling people what their chances are of surviving their illness, and fully informing their decision of what's best for them. You really should contol these emotional outbursts, they're not good for you.
 
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