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60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

Nor should they have the authority to make that decision, either way.

They don't have that right. They do have the right on whether or not to pay for it.
 
1. That an investigation into how the LCP is being administered has been launched.

2. That it is alleged that some patients are being put on the LCP without them or their families being told.

3. That it is alleged that hospitals are being rewarded for putting patients on the LCP.

4. That the Health Minister thinks that despite some problems the LCP is a tremendous advance in patient care, or words to that effect.

Take away all the pejorative language in the OP, and you've got Hospice Care. We've had that path in the United States for quite some time.
 
Take away all the pejorative language in the OP, and you've got Hospice Care. We've had that path in the United States for quite some time.

But doesn't hospice care in America require consent? I'm confused. :stars:
 
But doesn't hospice care in America require consent? I'm confused. :stars:

Yes, it does. This article claims that some people were put on that path w/o their knowledge or consent.** Therein lies the rub. The program is not designed to do that.

**The patient may have been lucid enough to give the doctor permission early on without the family knowing...one person in the family may take exception to the rest of the family's decision if the patient wasn't lucid. There could be many reasons for this. This article takes the worst possible editorial position: they allowed the patient to die without his/his family's consent.
 
There is no such thing as a citizen worth more than another citizen. What you propose is bigotry of an even worse type than by race. You would make a great Communist dictator though.

Nonsense. I am proposing a sensible approach to healthcare and budgeting rather than an emotion driven diatribe about human value.



Thanx for the completely false accusation because I never said anything like that.

Sure you did. Keeping terminally ill people alive only to suffer equates to just what I said.





Your own attitude is insulting you? You said that living people were costing us money that we should just kill them and save money. Why not start with yourself first since technically we are all dying and expensive to keep alive you would be doing everyone a great service by saving us money.

Nope. It's your emotive approach to this argument that led you to insult me. And now you resort to hyperbole by comparing the everyday costs of living for a healthy person to the expensive and pointless costs of maintaining life for the dying.






Well you said that point blankly it cost 10k a day for everyone now you are back pedaling.

No, I am not back pedaling at all, but you are nitpicking. It is true that I did not use the word "average," though. Good for you.



Is that because you are trying to promote your ideology here and you wouldnt want to talk about how thats really what the subject is about in this thread? Seriously take a good look at all of those posts here you can easily pick which ideology each poster is trying to promote. Most everyone here is saying that their ideology will fix healthcare. So this really is not a debate about healthcare but a war between ideologies.

If you want to start a separate thread about how to reform healthcare, please feel free to do so. I will gladly debate you on that topic there.
 
Nonsense. I am proposing a sensible approach to healthcare and budgeting rather than an emotion driven diatribe about human value.

You have a proposal? Where?



Sure you did. Keeping terminally ill people alive only to suffer equates to just what I said.
I did when? Not all terminally ill people would agree with your assertion and would rather suffer than to die. But then I never made the claim that you are lying about anyways, and please quit lying to my face. I prefer that dishonest people like yourself lie behind my back like the dogs that they are.

Did you get my meaning? See now for everyone here not to think of you as lair you would need to prove that I said what you are accusing me of. The problem is that I did not say that which means that you are lying. So please stop this dishonest bull**** now its not winning you anything in this debate.







Nope. It's your emotive approach to this argument that led you to insult me. And now you resort to hyperbole by comparing the everyday costs of living for a healthy person to the expensive and pointless costs of maintaining life for the dying.
I did not insult you I suggested that you should kill yourself to save us money. On the other hand you insulted me by lying to me in my face as if I wouldnt notice that you lied about what I actually said.




No, I am not back pedaling at all, but you are nitpicking. It is true that I did not use the word "average," though. Good for you.
I could quote where you said 10k but then its pointless since I agree that intensive care is expensive.





If you want to start a separate thread about how to reform healthcare, please feel free to do so. I will gladly debate you on that topic there.
Hmm that is interesting since you brought up that you have a proposal for healthcare in this thread. SO what you are saying is that you can talk about whats wrong with the healthcare system in this thread and I cannot? Isnt that just a bit hypocritical?

But then I do not debate with people that are openly dishonest like yourself. SO is there anything else that you are going to try to say that i said that I did not? Let me make it clear though that what I said was that terminally ill [people want the choice in their own hands or if they are unable to because of their condition to make a choice known that they want someone who they have entrusted with that decision. They do not want the hospital, the insurance company, medicaid or medicare, the Government (any of them) they dont want to take a vote or do whats is popular, they dont want a political party or a ideology to tell them when its time to die how and why or how much suffering that can endure. And I would guess that there is no one on this planet that wants you personally to make that decision for them.

Not once did I even imply that we should keep people alive so that they can suffer longer. Dude have you been drinking or are you always like this?
 
Did you read the article you posted? It doesn't support the claims of The Daily Telegraph or The Daily Mail.

"Anonymous doctors?" That seems to be a favorite tact by conservative rags. A fact would require the sources could be verified.

It confirms that an investigation has been launched about the LCP, that allegations have surfaced that people are being put on the LCP involuntarily, and so on.
 
Take away all the pejorative language in the OP, and you've got Hospice Care. We've had that path in the United States for quite some time.

Hospice care without informed consent? I don't think so.
 
Almost no one who has paid into social security, medicaid, or medicare will pay enough into these systems to cover their costs. Fact. Of course exceptions exist, but this remains fact for a majority of people. In fact, most people are receiving benefits they never paid for. This isn't about compassion, it's about math. Either the money is there, or it's not. And I'm sorry to inform you- it is not. The money to pay for terminally ill people to eke out another several miserable months on the tax payer's dime simply doesn't exist. According to a source cited in this thread a few pages back, it costs $10,000 a day to maintain someone in the intensive care unit. $50 billion a year to maintain terminally ill patients, and up 30% of that cost has no meaningful impact. If people want to think with their emotions, fine, but at some point they need to come back down here to reality and understand that everything has a cost.

Nobody is saying that we need to provide expensive surgeries for terminal patients, just that we shouldn't off them to save money. Hospices aren't that ****ing expensive.

So according to you, we should put them down then to save cash, right? We give away trillions to banks, wars, and foreign aid, yet when it comes time for grandma to need some hospice care, **** 'em right?
 
1. That an investigation into how the LCP is being administered has been launched.

2. That it is alleged that some patients are being put on the LCP without them or their families being told.

3. That it is alleged that hospitals are being rewarded for putting patients on the LCP.

4. That the Health Minister thinks that despite some problems the LCP is a tremendous advance in patient care, or words to that effect.

The story would be unremarkable indeed if those four headings were presentled so drily. Perhaps it needs more fevered imagination regarding "Death Panels". The NHS does not confirm the slanted presentation in the "story"
 
So we should put them down then to save cash, right? We give away billions to banks, wars, and foreign aid, yet when it comes time for grandma to need some hospice care, **** 'em right?

Hospice care is not life saving treatment. I fully support allowing someone to die in a peaceful, dignified manner. Always have.
 
Hospice care is not life saving treatment. I fully support allowing someone to die in a peaceful, dignified manner. Always have.

That's not what's happening here. Nobody is suggesting that terminal patients need to be given expensive surgeries for nought, just that they shouldn't be euthanized against their will to save money. In the OP people are being involuntarily euthanized to save money, is that really what you want?
 
That's not what's happening here. Nobody is suggesting that terminal patients need to be given expensive surgeries for nought, just that they shouldn't be euthanized against their will to save money. In the OP people are being involuntarily euthanized to save money, is that really what you want?

There is a world of difference between injecting someone or smothering them with a pillow and withdrawing life prolonging treatment.
 
That's not what's happening here. Nobody is suggesting that terminal patients need to be given expensive surgeries for nought, just that they shouldn't be euthanized against their will to save money. In the OP people are being involuntarily euthanized to save money, is that really what you want?

That's not what is happening here.
 
The story would be unremarkable indeed if those four headings were presentled so drily. Perhaps it needs more fevered imagination regarding "Death Panels". The NHS does not confirm the slanted presentation in the "story"

The slant is immaterial. The facts are what is important.

If find the allegation that people are being put on this pathway without informed consent to be alarming indeed.
 
That's not what is happening here.

Care minister Norman Lamb is quoted as saying:

"It is clear that everyone wants their loved ones' final hours of life to be as pain free and dignified as possible, and the Liverpool Care Pathway is an important part of achieving this aim."

"However, as we have seen, there have been too many cases where patients were put on the pathway without a proper explanation or their families being involved. This is simply unacceptable."

What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices
 
There is a world of difference between injecting someone or smothering them with a pillow and withdrawing life prolonging treatment.

You're absolutely correct. My opposition in this thread is calling for putting people down. That was the premise of the OP. Is that not what you're calling for?
 
It confirms that an investigation has been launched about the LCP, that allegations have surfaced that people are being put on the LCP involuntarily, and so on.
Yes, thats what they said in 2009. What happened to that investigation? It kinda looks like The Telegraph and the Daily Mail are just recycling an old story to keep people stoked up in order to keep their agenda relevant.
 
You ARE aware that there are cases when doctors tell a patient that he/she cannot survive, and they beat the odds and DO survive. A doctor's prognosis is NOT always correct and all-knowing, but a guesstimate a LOT of the times.

I don't mind paying for other people's healthcare who can't afford it themselves. THAT is a good use of money IMO.

Appeal to probability fallacy. Just because doctors are wrong sometimes, does not mean they are wrong most of the time. In fact, if they weren't right MUCH more often then everyone else, then we wouldn't need them. Are you suggesting we don't need doctors? Because it sounds like you are suggesting we only need doctors when they tell you what you want to hear.
 
You're absolutely correct. My opposition in this thread is calling for putting people down. That was the premise of the OP. Is that not what you're calling for?

Wow. Just wow. Please cite Post #s where anyone has suggested "putting people down." Can't intelligent conversations about this important subject take place without over-the-top hyperbole?
 
That statement is accurate, unlike the "death pathway" nonsense in the OP.

Actually, that's a term I coined, and absolutely accurate, too. The LCP always ends up with the patient dying, which can be a good thing if it's done ethically.
 
Actually, that's a term I coined, and absolutely accurate, too. The LCP always ends up with the patient dying, which can be a good thing if it's done ethically.
LOL Really? Isn't that like saying nobody survives a nursing home? Heck, lets just call them death traps since nobody gets out alive. meeeh

Speaking of which there seems to be a lot of elderly abuse in some "private" nursing homes. Does that bother you or is it just government funded hospice care?

You know there was a time when families took care of their own elderly folks and it was just part of life. Today, society has removed themselves from the painful ugliness of dying by shuttering the elderly and dying away so we don't have to see it. Gawd, I can't wait to get old.
 
Wow. Just wow. Please cite Post #s where anyone has suggested "putting people down." Can't intelligent conversations about this important subject take place without over-the-top hyperbole?

That was the whole topic of this thread, sedating people and withdrawing life sustaining care without them or their families consenting to it.
 
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