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60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

Has been repeatedly. Don't you remember it was even lie of the year. They spell it out pretty well, as do others. Surely you don't need these links repeated?

Its up to you to prove me wrong. Hint: just you saying it doesn't prove anything.
 
Wow. Well, there's not much chance of my ending up with your witch's curse. My life and death is planned out. Tom, my significant other I've been with for 13 years, isn't my HCPOA. My cousin is. I've had long talks with her, and she is quite aware of the 3-day rule (as in 3minutes/3days/3weeks). I've made my wishes very clear to her, and I trust that she will abide by them with not a guilty bone in her body.

I stand by what I said. COPD, in the long run, gets nothing but worse from day of diagnosis. Live long enough? One will die from it or its complications. That is NOT the same thing as the terminal illnesses I've referred to in my posts.

Money was not a consideration in my late husband's case -- nor my father's. Both were on Medicare. My late husband elected not to take chemotherapy. They'd have been thrilled to administer it to him at an average cost of $50,000 to the system. And the hospital where my dad died? They would have also been thrilled to keep him in intensive care for six months until he finally gave up the ghost.

These decisions should always be made for the good of the patient. No where did I say anything differently. Not for the good of the family. Not to assuage their conscience. Not to keep them from feeling guilty. Not because they can't bear to make hard decisions. For the good of the patient. Always. And keeping a terminal patient alive until their poor little bodies finally give up is often not in the best interest of the patient at all.


I understand what you are saying here Maggie, and applaud your planning, something I should probably look into myself....But I am curious, given your circumstances, would you be upset if the state, ie; governmental board like the NHS, or our own newly formed IPAB, over rode your careful planning, and determined that they knew better when to fold their arms, and just give the pain pill?
 
The "care pathway" is where they sedate patients and then withdraw life sustaining care, basically killing them off.

The protocol doesn't kill them. Their medical condition does.
 
Right now we don't have anything like that. What we have is bureaucracies that will operate without accountability that have been set up by a law that was narrowly passed along partisan lines and doesn't even have the support of a majority of the people. It's not sustainable.

Unfortunately, that is what happens we collectively place our trust in government to meet our health care needs, rather than being willing to pay for it ourselves at the individual level.
 
I understand what you are saying here Maggie, and applaud your planning, something I should probably look into myself....But I am curious, given your circumstances, would you be upset if the state, ie; governmental board like the NHS, or our own newly formed IPAB, over rode your careful planning, and determined that they knew better when to fold their arms, and just give the pain pill?

No doctor is going to make that decision while I'm lucid. And with a healthcare power of attorney in my cousin's name, she's me. I, unlike others here, don't fear that doctors are going to "off me" just for the helluvit.

Everyone should have a HCPOA in place. Every single one. It is a gift to your family. It is a gift to yourself. Otherwise intelligent people have trouble facing the necessity of having one. I was my husband's. My husband was mine. I wouldn't burden my Angel Boy Tommy with that as he'd keep me propped up in the living room holding my hand while watching TV 'til I dried up and blew away. :rofl That's why I chose my cousin. And I'm blessed that she accepted that awesome responsibility. (We're like sisters.)
 
Is this a prediction or are you speaking of something in the PPACA?

The PPACA had provisions in it, to reduce Medicare spending, but the doc fix was passed, which eliminated that.
PPACA was supposed to be paid for, mostly from cuts in Medicare.


For you maybe $10k. For me a $billion might not be enough. ;)

For me, $1 trillion+.
There is the problem though, most people want no expense spared to pay for their life.
 
Then don't use poor sources, and seek clarification and not weak links between un similar things.

A source isn't poor just because you don't like their editorial slant. The important facts of the story were correct.
 
These people spent their entire working lives paying into medicaid, the world's largest ponsi scheme, and when it comes time to cash that out, "Sorry, our government has horrifically mismanaged that money, so your life is now too expensive."

Look at the numbers hon. They don't add up. You can't spend your lifetime paying into a program, when your expenditure needs don't come anywhere near that which you have spent, and expect it to be otherwise. It's the same problem we have with SS. The majority of SS recipients receive far more in benefits, than they ever paid in. This is why it doesn't work long term, and that is why government healthcare is doomed for failure from the outset.
 
Its up to you to prove me wrong. Hint: just you saying it doesn't prove anything.

So, you've seen none of this? Meaning you know nothing at all. Doesn't such lack of knowledge make for a good sheep?
 
A source isn't poor just because you don't like their editorial slant. The important facts of the story were correct.

No, being inaccurate makes it a poor source. Being like the National Equirer or someone running an ad as your last one wavs make them poor sources
 
For me, $1 trillion+.
There is the problem though, most people want no expense spared to pay for their life.

Yes, and combine that with democracy and you have a tough problem.

The Brits, on the other hand, seem to be fine with their level of care because everyone gets the same care.
 
No doctor is going to make that decision while I'm lucid. And with a healthcare power of attorney in my cousin's name, she's me. I, unlike others here, don't fear that doctors are going to "off me" just for the helluvit.

Everyone should have a HCPOA in place. Every single one. It is a gift to your family. It is a gift to yourself. Otherwise intelligent people have trouble facing the necessity of having one. I was my husband's. My husband was mine. I wouldn't burden my Angel Boy Tommy with that as he'd keep me propped up in the living room holding my hand while watching TV 'til I dried up and blew away. :rofl That's why I chose my cousin. And I'm blessed that she accepted that awesome responsibility. (We're like sisters.)

Who wouldn't want to keep Maggie around forever though? ;)
 
Look at the numbers hon. They don't add up. You can't spend your lifetime paying into a program, when your expenditure needs don't come anywhere near that which you have spent, and expect it to be otherwise. It's the same problem we have with SS. The majority of SS recipients receive far more in benefits, than they ever paid in. This is why it doesn't work long term, and that is why government healthcare is doomed for failure from the outset.

I've done the numbers of Tommy Boy before regards Social Security. Figuring what he and his employer paid into Social Security on his behalf, that totals $120,000. He receives $1800/month. He will receive everything back in 5.5 years. His life expectancy is 17 years from today. Nice. What is the life expectancy of a 65 year old man?

As for Medicare? He paid peanuts into that....most people his age did. And for $99 a month and a $139 supplement, all of his medical expenses will be paid 'til the day he dies. It's simply unsustainable.
 
Yes, and combine that with democracy and you have a tough problem.

The Brits, on the other hand, seem to be fine with their level of care because everyone gets the same care.

Most, yes, some, no.
The people with the rare/very expensive conditions, may not get all of what they need.
 
I am not trying to be difficult here, I am interested. Just tell me, What are your Taxation rates for income levels at $50K per year?
Nearly 35%, which I find atrocious. But when you look at the federal income breakdown, a smaller portion, even adjusted for the higher percentage, actually goes to medical care. Here you can either use the state system, which stays pretty constant throughout your life (approx 200 euro/month for 2 people for full coverage), or you can take a tax rebate and go with private insurance, which is cheaper when you're young, but increases drastically when you get older. That way those who don't want to pay for others can, and those who want guaranteed coverage for everything can have it.
 
No doctor is going to make that decision while I'm lucid. And with a healthcare power of attorney in my cousin's name, she's me. I, unlike others here, don't fear that doctors are going to "off me" just for the helluvit.

Everyone should have a HCPOA in place. Every single one. It is a gift to your family. It is a gift to yourself. Otherwise intelligent people have trouble facing the necessity of having one. I was my husband's. My husband was mine. I wouldn't burden my Angel Boy Tommy with that as he'd keep me propped up in the living room holding my hand while watching TV 'til I dried up and blew away. :rofl That's why I chose my cousin. And I'm blessed that she accepted that awesome responsibility. (We're like sisters.)

Very funny the bit about Tommy :lol: My wife would be the same way....heh, heh...But in the part that I bolded is exactly what seems to be going on here. According to the article...

The review follows a public outcry over a string of disturbing cases, highlighted by this paper, in which patients or their families were ignored.

snip

It found many patients were not consulted despite being conscious when doctors decided on their care.

Records from 178 hospitals also show that thousands of people on the pathway are left to die in pain because nurses do not do enough to keep them comfortable while drugs are administered.

An estimated 130,000 patients are put on the pathway each year.

Concerns have been raised that clinical judgments are being skewed by incentives for hospitals to use the pathway.

snip

Norman Lamb, the care services minister, launched a review in November, saying there had been too many cases of families not being consulted.

snip

It found that in 44 per cent of cases when conscious patients were placed on the pathway, there was no record that the decision had been discussed with them.
For 22 per cent, there was no evidence that comfort and safety had been maintained while medication was administered.

Sounds to me that is exactly what is happening here...Doc's are making that decision on their own, without so much as telling the patient or designee what is going on, all because an incentive to do so is in place.
 
For God's sake, apdst -- one just has to Snopes it: snopes.com: Seniors Beware

It's crystal.

The death panel mutated into various things. It started out as ethics panels that would decide on an individual basis whether people would get care. Then it became bureaus that would decide what would be covered but not on an individual basis. Some people even referred to end of life counselling as death panels.

The ethics panels don't exist in the PPACA. There are without question bureaus that decide what's to be covered just like insurance companies have. And I was never able to make any sense out of the idea that end of life counseling was a death panel, but it was kind of creepy showing up in a national health care law like that. It wasn't really even necessary to put it into law since most hospitals have a policy of providing that to patients when appropriate. (I got hit with that myself one time. Nothing like that to make you come face to face with your own mortality.)
 
I've done the numbers of Tommy Boy before regards Social Security. Figuring what he and his employer paid into Social Security on his behalf, that totals $120,000. He receives $1800/month. He will receive everything back in 5.5 years. His life expectancy is 17 years from today. Nice. What is the life expectancy of a 65 year old man?

As for Medicare? He paid peanuts into that....most people his age did. And for $99 a month and a $139 supplement, all of his medical expenses will be paid 'til the day he dies. It's simply unsustainable.

That's what I'm talking about. The general public seems to have no idea that they are receiving far more than they paid in, and when most everyone eventually reaches the age that they will be on the receiving end, it is a system that cannot last.
 
Very funny the bit about Tommy :lol: My wife would be the same way....heh, heh...But in the part that I bolded is exactly what seems to be going on here. According to the article...

Sounds to me that is exactly what is happening here...Doc's are making that decision on their own, without so much as telling the patient or designee what is going on, all because an incentive to do so is in place.

Well, I won't argue the point except to say that there is a huge difference between being conscious and being lucid. Frankly, I think doctors should convene family meetings . . . it's usually the other way around. Families simply must understand that their responsibility is to do what's right for their loved one. And very often, keeping them alive at all costs isn't in their best interests at all.

Truth be told? Even with clear direction from a HCPOA, most doctors won't withdraw treatment without a family consensus. (Lizzie would be better able to say this with conviction than I . . . but I believe it's true.)
 
Look at the numbers hon. They don't add up. You can't spend your lifetime paying into a program, when your expenditure needs don't come anywhere near that which you have spent, and expect it to be otherwise. It's the same problem we have with SS. The majority of SS recipients receive far more in benefits, than they ever paid in. This is why it doesn't work long term, and that is why government healthcare is doomed for failure from the outset.
I know I sound like a broken record, but the Germans manage to provide 100% full coverage for every citizen on half the per capita and half the percentage of GDP costs of our system. They don't kill old people here, and they don't turn away the poor. We're doing something wrong.
 
Nearly 35%, which I find atrocious. But when you look at the federal income breakdown, a smaller portion, even adjusted for the higher percentage, actually goes to medical care. Here you can either use the state system, which stays pretty constant throughout your life (approx 200 euro/month for 2 people for full coverage), or you can take a tax rebate and go with private insurance, which is cheaper when you're young, but increases drastically when you get older. That way those who don't want to pay for others can, and those who want guaranteed coverage for everything can have it.

Ok, so apples to apples you are about 12% higher than I pay. Germany also has a little more than a quarter the population as the US is....So, there is really no way to compare the two.
 
Yeah, I'm going to need something besides the trash that the Daily Mail is.
 
I know I sound like a broken record, but the Germans manage to provide 100% full coverage for every citizen on half the per capita and half the percentage of GDP costs of our system. They don't kill old people here, and they don't turn away the poor. We're doing something wrong.

Yes, we're doing something wrong. We are supporting the belief that you can get something for nothing, and that you are owed just by birthright. Germany has a bit of a different culture than the US. Americans are collectively very unhealthy, both physically, and psychologically. We have the 2nd highest obesity rate, next to Mexico. We do everything to excess, whether it be eat, drink, smoke, or stress out. We have a huge number of citizens who collect benefits, without ever having paid in.
 
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