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60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

lizzie said:
The individual has no right to demand that others pick up the cost of their care indefinitely.
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Why not..I am sure when this guy was fit and healthy..he paid taxes for people who didn't work...

Lets face it..society had finished with him..Next..

It's like the blade runner..
 
Boo Radley said:
But as a people, we can plan for how to bet deal with such eventualities effectively and efficiently.
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Yes, they're called living wills, advanced directives and healthcare powers of attorney. Until we are willing to accept death as inevitable and realize we have the RIGHT to a peaceful journey to that end? We will continue gnashing our teeth, keeping people alive who are in intractable pain, and treating our loved ones worse than we treat our beloved dogs.
 
MaggieD said:
My husband died of lung cancer after a year-long battle. He had a tumor in his lungs the size of an orange. They removed one lobe. The surgery was excruciatingly painful. Horrible for him. The first day after surgery, they took him off most pain medication; he couldn't even talk he was in so much pain. He took radiation every day for six weeks -- we had to drive 150 miles every day for the treatments. The drive was extremely painful for him every single day.
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I'm so sorry to hear this Maggie, but if I were your husband, I hope I would take the same approach that he did. There comes a point when we realize that we are not immortal, and there are some things that are not worth the fight, because the fight can be worse than the price of acceptance. Kudos to you for being so supportive, and to your husband for the battle he fought and chose. I would like to have known him- he sounds like an admirable man.
 
MaggieD said:
Yes, they're called living wills, advanced directives and healthcare powers of attorney. Until we are willing to accept death as inevitable and realize we have the RIGHT to a peaceful journey to that end? We will continue gnashing our teeth, keeping people alive who are in intractable pain, and treating our loved ones worse than we treat our beloved dogs.
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And informing people of these options is proper, and not a death panel.
 
MaggieD said:
This is not a bounty, for God's sake. First of all, your quote says, "It's thought..." Wow, that's hard news reporting if I ever heard it. Secondly, these people still have to get paid for what they're doing -- even if it's just occupying a bed. Paid for hospice care. Imagine that.
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I fail to see the difference between being rewarded for putting people on the pathway and a bounty. Both are rewards for taking a certain course of action. The term "reward" tends to rule out the idea that they are simply being paid for care. And yes, I find this claim credible. Pejorative? I would hope so!

We would hope that this is just the result of poor record keeping. We would hope that consent was obtained and patients were treated appropriately but that care givers didn't document it properly. I would think, however, that at the very least a formal written consent would be required before any patient was put on the pathway to death. The most chilling aspect of this story is the bit about some patients being conscious and able to consent when they were put on the pathway involuntarily. It implies that they weren't really even that sick!

The main point is that people are being "put on the pathway" involuntarily, which is bad enough bounty or no. Also the fact that as soon as this pathway was put into effect by the government it was being abused wholesale.

Lest we think that this would never happen in the US, let me tell you that in Texas it is already possible and legal for doctors to pull the plug on patients without the consent of the patient or the family. And the main reason for it is cost, and not in a cash strapped government hospital but in private hospitals flush with cash who want to be even more flush. The process for doing this is long, tedious and drawn out, so it is not being used very much. But there it is.
 
wolfie said:
Why not..I am sure when this guy was fit and healthy..he paid taxes for people who didn't work...

Lets face it..society had finished with him..Next..

It's like the blade runner..
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If he wants to pay for his own health care, he has the right to make demands, depending on the terms of the insurance policy he buys. When the taxpayer is footing the bill, he doesn't.
 
LowDown said:
I fail to see the difference between being rewarded for putting people on the pathway and a bounty. Both are rewards for taking a certain course of action. The term "reward" tends to rule out the idea that they are simply being paid for care. And yes, I find this claim credible. Pejorative? I would hope so!

We would hope that this is just the result of poor record keeping. We would hope that consent was obtained and patients were treated appropriately but that care givers didn't document it properly. I would think, however, that at the very least a formal written consent would be required before any patient was put on the pathway to death. The most chilling aspect of this story is the bit about some patients being conscious and able to consent when they were put on the pathway involuntarily. It implies that they weren't really even that sick!

The main point is that people are being "put on the pathway" involuntarily, which is bad enough bounty or no. Also the fact that as soon as this pathway was put into effect by the government it was being abused wholesale.

Lest we think that this would never happen in the US, let me tell you that in Texas it is already possible and legal for doctors to pull the plug on patients without the consent of the patient or the family. And the main reason for it is cost, and not in a cash strapped government hospital but in private hospitals flush with cash who want to be even more flush. The process for doing this is long, tedious and drawn out, so it is not being used very much. But there it is.
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Having information is an abuse how? Exactly?
 
wolfie said:
And are these patients capable of making this choice..or is it down to the nearest relatives...Mmmm..property..
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No doubt you find it difficult to live in a world in which it is assumed that a person can't even trust his or her own family.
 
LowDown said:
No doubt you find it difficult to live in a world in which it is assumed that a person can't even trust his or her own family.
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Have you met my family?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Well, I agree in theory, but in practice, I can't.
We, as a country, have decided that we want our elderly to be insured by a gov UHC program.

Our ability to continue to pay for it, is at great risk.
One of the largest costs is end of life care.
Where do you think they're going to cut services at?

I don't like it anymore than you, but that's the reality and it's ugly.
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If you didn't like it as much as I do, you would realize how preposterous it is. Of all the stupid **** we spend money on, you would have us start offing old people to save money? What the hell kind of society would we be running here?
 
LowDown said:
I fail to see the difference between being rewarded for putting people on the pathway and a bounty. Both are rewards for taking a certain course of action. The term "reward" tends to rule out the idea that they are simply being paid for care. And yes, I find this claim credible. Pejorative? I would hope so!

We would hope that this is just the result of poor record keeping. We would hope that consent was obtained and patients were treated appropriately but that care givers didn't document it properly. I would think, however, that at the very least a formal written consent would be required before any patient was put on the pathway to death. The most chilling aspect of this story is the bit about some patients being conscious and able to consent when they were put on the pathway involuntarily. It implies that they weren't really even that sick!

The main point is that people are being "put on the pathway" involuntarily, which is bad enough bounty or no. Also the fact that as soon as this pathway was put into effect by the government it was being abused wholesale.

Lest we think that this would never happen in the US, let me tell you that in Texas it is already possible and legal for doctors to pull the plug on patients without the consent of the patient or the family. And the main reason for it is cost, and not in a cash strapped government hospital but in private hospitals flush with cash who want to be even more flush. The process for doing this is long, tedious and drawn out, so it is not being used very much. But there it is.
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"Bounty" and "reward" are both pejorative words used by the newspaper, not the system. Jesus. When people are put on hospice care, Medicare pays for it. Is that a bounty?? Is it a bounty when a surgeon performs heart surgery?

Society cannot afford to keep terminal patients alive for as long as their little bodies are willing to fight the fight. There it is. The cold, hard truth.
 
Boo Radley said:
Have you met my family?
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For people who can't trust their family guardians can be assigned. But the presumption is that a person can trust his family.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
If you didn't like it as much as I do, you would realize how preposterous it is. Of all the stupid **** we spend money on, you would have us start offing old people to save money? What the hell kind of society would we be running here?
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Not "old people", but "old people who are so sick, there is no purpose for continuing their life."

Medicare is going to be the largest budget item we have and we won't have enough to pay for it, plus everything else.
That's one of those reality things again.

You can't have all the medical care you want, especially for elderly people, the money just isn't there, without punitive taxation on everyone else.
 
LowDown said:
For people who can't trust their family guardians can be assigned. But the presumption is that a person can trust his family.
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I would presume anything. You know what they say about assumptions.
 
MaggieD said:
"Bounty" and "reward" are both pejorative words used by the newspaper, not the system. Jesus. When people are put on hospice care, Medicare pays for it. Is that a bounty?? Is it a bounty when a surgeon performs heart surgery?

Society cannot afford to keep terminal patients alive for as long as their little bodies are willing to fight the fight. There it is. The cold, hard truth.
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So you're OK with people being killed without their consent? I have no problem with hospice care or this pathway thing if done right. I have a serious problem with violating a person's autonomy. It's the difference between a good death and murder.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
If you didn't like it as much as I do, you would realize how preposterous it is. Of all the stupid **** we spend money on, you would have us start offing old people to save money? What the hell kind of society would we be running here?
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To the bolded: One based on reality. The reality is that we all get sick and die at some point. This is not "offing" old people. It is living within the reality that we can't keep everyone alive who doesn't want to face the fact that they are sick and that they will die. Since you aren't in the business of health care, I can see why you would have trouble understanding the issues at stake, but the amount of money that we spend to keep people alive, when there is no cure or long-term benefit, is phenomenal.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Not "old people", but "old people who are so sick, there is no purpose for continuing their life."

Medicare is going to be the largest budget item we have and we won't have enough to pay for it, plus everything else.
That's one of those reality things again.

You can't have all the medical care you want, especially for elderly people, the money just isn't there, without punitive taxation on everyone else.
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I am 100% pro-assisted suicide. If the sick and old want to go, that's their business. If they want to keep on living and some doctor makes that decision for them, it's killing for money, and that is a horribly morally bankrupted concept.

lizzie said:
To the bolded: One based on reality. The reality is that we all get sick and die at some point. This is not "offing" old people. It is living within the reality that we can't keep everyone alive who doesn't want to face the fact that they are sick and that they will die. Since you aren't in the business of health care, I can see why you would have trouble understanding the issues at stake, but the amount of money that we spend to keep people alive, when there is no cure or long-term benefit, is phenomenal.
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We just spend 4 trillion on iraq and afghanistan helping people we not only don't like, but people we hate, and you want to tell me we can't afford to keep a few sick people on life support?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I am 100% pro-assisted suicide. If the sick and old want to go, that's their business. If they want to keep on living and some doctor makes that decision for them, it's killing for money, and that is a horribly morally bankrupted concept.


We just spend 4 trillion on iraq and afghanistan, and you want to tell me we can't afford to keep a few sick people on life support?
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Yes I'm telling you that.
Medicare, Medicaid and debt interest are going to consume out entire federal budget in the future.
If things like this, aren't done to reduce spending.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
We just spend 4 trillion on iraq and afghanistan, and you want to tell me we can't afford to keep a few sick people on life support?
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You are naive if you think this is a small problem.
 
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