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60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

ThePlayDrive said:
I'll believe it when someone other than the British equivalent of the National Enquirer reports on it.
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Even the National Enquirer is often more factual and truthful than the Mail....
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So you want any random doctor to be able to sentence you to death without telling you? Do you know how many people have fought a terminal diagnosis and lived on?
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Yea instead of having your HMO pull funding or deny funding... much better to let the bean counters make such calls than those damn uppity doctors and their fancy non-Christian education.

Do you know how many people in the US alone die each year because they cant afford treatment or their insurance provider pulls funding? And when they die, many are in massive debt after trying to find funds to cure a lost cause?
 
MaggieD said:
It is a great step forward, in my opinion. When someone has a terminal disease and is in the last stages, it is absolutely foolish to keep spending tens of thousands -- hundreds of thousands -- prolonging the inevitable. It is horribly difficult on the person as well as on their families. There is only one reason for doctors to treat clearly-terminal illnesses: they make more money keeping you interminably alive than by letting you die a peaceful death.

As for paying them a bounty. That's just pejorative bull****.
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It's right there in the article:

Health trusts are thought to have been rewarded with an extra £30million for putting more patients on the LCP.
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Allowing patients to make the choice to forgo life sustaining care and then keeping them comfortable until they die is one thing. It's quite another to do this to patients without asking them in order to save money for the system.
 
LowDown said:
It's right there in the article:



Allowing patients to make the choice to forgo life sustaining care and then keeping them comfortable until they die is one thing. It's quite another to do this to patients without asking them in order to save money for the system.
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This is not a bounty, for God's sake. First of all, your quote says, "It's thought..." Wow, that's hard news reporting if I ever heard it. Secondly, these people still have to get paid for what they're doing -- even if it's just occupying a bed. Paid for hospice care. Imagine that.
 
PeteEU said:
Yea instead of having your HMO pull funding or deny funding... much better to let the bean counters make such calls than those damn uppity doctors and their fancy non-Christian education.

Do you know how many people in the US alone die each year because they cant afford treatment or their insurance provider pulls funding? And when they die, many are in massive debt after trying to find funds to cure a lost cause?
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Well, it's either a lost cause or they died because funding was pulled. You can't have it both ways.

As for patients who die because their funding was pulled, I know the answer: Hardly anyone. There are a lot of patients who have the expectation that anything they want will be funded whether it's likely to benefit them or not, but patients who don't get necessary things without which they die? No, doesn't happen. Not even in charity hospitals.
 
MaggieD said:
It is a great step forward, in my opinion. When someone has a terminal disease and is in the last stages, it is absolutely foolish to keep spending tens of thousands -- hundreds of thousands -- prolonging the inevitable. It is horribly difficult on the person as well as on their families. There is only one reason for doctors to treat clearly-terminal illnesses: they make more money keeping you interminably alive than by letting you die a peaceful death.

As for paying them a bounty. That's just pejorative bull****.
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You dont think that perhaps the patient isnt ready to die yet? What you just said is really easy to say if it isnt you or someone that you love. And well since you are not actually the person consenting then thanx for your opinion, and thankfully you are powerless.

On January 10th, 2011 my Mom passed away after a long battle with COPD. Her doctor literally asked me to make the decision to let her die by taking here off of oxygen and no longer feed here in the hospital. I agreed since her mind was gone from oxygen deprivation. She had been listed as terminally ill since 1998 and here mind didnt start really going until the last year. My kids got to know their Grandma in those years (one was born in 2000 the other in 2003)

You have no right to decide who lives based on how much it costs to keep them alive. My Mom was on medicare she worked all of her life even after 1998 despite her condition. ANd I am sick of heartless people like you thinking that they can dictate what other people do with their lives. I suggest that you hop on a plane and go off to somewhere else where such an attitude is accepted in that society because this is not how Americans treat their loved ones. Here we at least give a **** about dying people.

IMHO people like you are monsters. You can hate me report me to a mod I REALLY ****ING DONT CARE.
 
LowDown said:
It's right there in the article:



Allowing patients to make the choice to forgo life sustaining care and then keeping them comfortable until they die is one thing. It's quite another to do this to patients without asking them in order to save money for the system.
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And are these patients capable of making this choice..or is it down to the nearest relatives...Mmmm..property..
 
RabidAlpaca said:
That's not their decision to make, these people aren't dogs. That's the patient's and the family's decision to make. You really want a doctor to diagnose you as terminal, then put a pillow over your head? Or would you like to maybe get a second opinion or choose how you want to spend your last days?
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It's a necessary evil, when it comes to elder care and UHC programs.
If we were smart, we'd be doing the same thing in Medicare.

Just remember to, that the mail is a sensationalist rag.
Although there is a grain of truth, to most of their stories.
 
Can a Brit still claim to have the right to life?
 
FreedomFromAll said:
You dont think that perhaps the patient isnt ready to die yet? What you just said is really easy to say if it isnt you or someone that you love. And well since you are not actually the person consenting then thanx for your opinion, and thankfully you are powerless.

On January 10th, 2011 my Mom passed away after a long battle with COPD. Her doctor literally asked me to make the decision to let her die by taking here off of oxygen and no longer feed here in the hospital. I agreed since her mind was gone from oxygen deprivation. She had been listed as terminally ill since 1998 and here mind didnt start really going until the last year. My kids got to know their Grandma in those years (one was born in 2000 the other in 2003)

You have no right to decide who lives based on how much it costs to keep them alive. My Mom was on medicare she worked all of her life even after 1998 despite her condition. ANd I am sick of heartless people like you thinking that they can dictate what other people do with their lives. I suggest that you hop on a plane and go off to somewhere else where such an attitude is accepted in that society because this is not how Americans treat their loved ones. Here we at least give a **** about dying people.

IMHO people like you are monsters. You can hate me report me to a mod I REALLY ****ING DONT CARE.
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I recently read of a coma victim..she had been in a coma for 5 years..she heard her family..telling the doctor to turn off her oxygen supply...and harvest her organs..she said ''I could hear them but I could not talk or shout''

She came round and now lives a full life...
 
wolfie said:
I recently read of a coma victim..she had been in a coma for 5 years..she heard her family..telling the doctor to turn off her oxygen supply...and harvest her organs..she said ''I could hear them but I could not talk or shout''

She came round and now lives a full life...
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Don't know the specifics of what you read, or the credibility, but a coma is different than being Brain dead.
 
apdst said:
"death panels" is a lie, yet the section was removed from the bill. Hmmm!
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I know. I wrote my congress critter (R) Grassley over this. He was a proponent for it prior to the big lie. He told me we had to be sensitive to the mistaken beliefs of some. I told him he was full of **** and a coward. A lie is a lie.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
You dont think that perhaps the patient isnt ready to die yet? What you just said is really easy to say if it isnt you or someone that you love. And well since you are not actually the person consenting then thanx for your opinion, and thankfully you are powerless.

On January 10th, 2011 my Mom passed away after a long battle with COPD. Her doctor literally asked me to make the decision to let her die by taking here off of oxygen and no longer feed here in the hospital. I agreed since her mind was gone from oxygen deprivation. She had been listed as terminally ill since 1998 and here mind didnt start really going until the last year. My kids got to know their Grandma in those years (one was born in 2000 the other in 2003)

You have no right to decide who lives based on how much it costs to keep them alive. My Mom was on medicare she worked all of her life even after 1998 despite her condition. ANd I am sick of heartless people like you thinking that they can dictate what other people do with their lives. I suggest that you hope on a plane and go off to somewhere else where such an attitude is accepted in that society because this is not how Americans treat their loved ones. Here we at least give a **** about dying people.

IMHO people like you are monsters. You can hate me report me to a mod I REALLY ****ING DONT CARE.
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Why would I report you?

My husband died of lung cancer after a year-long battle. He had a tumor in his lungs the size of an orange. They removed one lobe. The surgery was excruciatingly painful. Horrible for him. The first day after surgery, they took him off most pain medication; he couldn't even talk he was in so much pain. He took radiation every day for six weeks -- we had to drive 150 miles every day for the treatments. The drive was extremely painful for him every single day.

The doctor recommended chemotherapy...said he'd take it for the rest of his life, although it might extend it. "Would you do it if you were him?" I asked. "If I had a son graduating from college, and I wanted to be there for his graduation? I might. Otherwise, I would not." (He didn't take it.)

Anyhow, before he recovered from the surgery? The cancer had moved to his spine. To his spleen. To his kidneys. He was in intractable pain for the rest of his life. Could barely walk. Only in the last few months did they medicate it away. And when they did that? He was gone as well. His death was horrible. I was with him every step of the way.

My dad had a stroke. He lived with it for nine miserable years. Hated his life. He could barely walk. Had lost any quality of life he had left. His wife had to work, so the kids helped out every single day of those nine years. He was always falling...one day he fell and really hurt his back. The pain wouldn't subside. It left him crying like a baby and in agony every time he moved. Doctors couldn't find a reason for it...they put him in the hospital where he got pneumonia and his kidneys failed. The kidney doctor told us matter-of-factly that he'd be on dialysis at least three days a week for the rest of his life. "How about his back pain," we asked. "We can't do anything about that." We placed him in hospice at the hospital. He died in two days.

Don't call me a monster. I've been there and bought the T-Shirt. My heart's been broken twice -- with more in the headlights. I don't know how you can possibly take the position you're taking when you withdrew life support from your mother. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?
 
LowDown said:
The "care pathway" is where they sedate patients and then withdraw life sustaining care, basically killing them off.

Put the government in charge of health care and then see what happens when the government gets short of money.
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Unfortunately, this is what many of us will be looking at, as healthcare costs get out of control, and our medical technology exceeds our ability to pay for it. We are living longer lifespans, but spending more years in chronically ill conditions, and when this is the case, if government is the payor source, these decisions will be made by government bureaucrats. That is why I prefer private insurers. They can place lifetime benefit limits up front, and the consumer knows beforehand, what he is dealing with. The reality is that we can't keep everyone alive indefinitely, and keeping everyone alive indefinitely is very costly.
 
Boo Radley said:
I know. I wrote my congress critter (R) Grassley over this. He was a proponent for it prior to the big lie. He told me we had to be sensitive to the mistaken beliefs of some. I told him he was full of **** and a coward. A lie is a lie.
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If it's a lie, then how come the Dems couldn't omit that sectoon fast enough?
 
apdst said:
If it's a lie, then how come the Dems couldn't omit that sectoon fast enough?
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You're not listening. You are simply repeating that the lie worked.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
It's a necessary evil, when it comes to elder care and UHC programs.
If we were smart, we'd be doing the same thing in Medicare.

Just remember to, that the mail is a sensationalist rag.
Although there is a grain of truth, to most of their stories.
Click to expand...
That's horrific. Medicine is not an exact science. A terminal diagnosis is not a 100% guarantee that you will die. Even if it was, if you have more days to live, and you want to keep on living, that is your right as an American and as a human being.

PeteEU said:
Yea instead of having your HMO pull funding or deny funding... much better to let the bean counters make such calls than those damn uppity doctors and their fancy non-Christian education.

Do you know how many people in the US alone die each year because they cant afford treatment or their insurance provider pulls funding? And when they die, many are in massive debt after trying to find funds to cure a lost cause?
Click to expand...

Have you ever heard me voice great love for the American health care system? I live in Germany where health care is cheap and fantastic. Doctors don't have the right to put you down because they think you might die someday.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
You have no right to decide who lives based on how much it costs to keep them alive. My Mom was on medicare she worked all of her life even after 1998 despite her condition. ANd I am sick of heartless people like you thinking that they can dictate what other people do with their lives. I suggest that you hop on a plane and go off to somewhere else where such an attitude is accepted in that society because this is not how Americans treat their loved ones. Here we at least give a **** about dying people.

IMHO people like you are monsters. You can hate me report me to a mod I REALLY ****ING DONT CARE.
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The individual has no right to demand that others pick up the cost of their care indefinitely.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
That's horrific. Medicine is not an exact science. A terminal diagnosis is not a 100% guarantee that you will die. Even if it was, if you have more days to live, and you want to keep on living, that is your right as an American and as a human being.
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Then families?? Step up and do the work. Don't just house your loved ones in nursing homes and beat your breasts, for God's sake. The guy in this article sat around for 33 hours and watched his mother die. He could have removed her from the hospital and taken her home in a heartbeat. Where's THAT story?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
That's horrific. Medicine is not an exact science. A terminal diagnosis is not a 100% guarantee that you will die. Even if it was, if you have more days to live, and you want to keep on living, that is your right as an American and as a human being.



Have you ever heard me voice great love for the American health care system? I live in Germany where health care is cheap and fantastic. Doctors don't have the right to put you down because they think you might die someday.
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Well, I agree in theory, but in practice, I can't.
We, as a country, have decided that we want our elderly to be insured by a gov UHC program.

Our ability to continue to pay for it, is at great risk.
One of the largest costs is end of life care.
Where do you think they're going to cut services at?

I don't like it anymore than you, but that's the reality and it's ugly.
 
apdst said:
If it's a lie, then how come the Dems couldn't omit that sectoon fast enough?
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Please give us a link showing what, in regards to "death panels" was removed from the healthcare bill. You can't. Because it was never there.
 
lizzie said:
The individual has no right to demand that others pick up the cost of their care indefinitely.
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But as a people, we can plan for how to bet deal with such eventualities effectively and efficiently.
 
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