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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #391
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Penderyn View Post
    Many Americans care for money more than anyone else's life, whereas decent people have to make decisions about the use of shared resources. This is one of those areas where it is difficult to discuss ideas with primitives, alas.
    Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you must be "primitives." Like it or not, all lives have a price tag on them. Even you value yourself and your family's life more than a stranger's. How much of your money would you give away to help people you don't know? The fact remains: healthcare will always be rationed according to who can pay more. Such is life.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Are you aware that a LOT of times when FIRST diagnosed with cancer (even terminal), people can have little symptoms to no symptoms and feel fine. Of course, they would want to fight the disease. There are PLENTY of people who beat the odds. Doctors are NOT GOD. They DO NOT know how long you can live.

    Here is just ONE example.

    Cancer Patient Beats the Odds, Inspires Thousands

    A Sherwood woman given less than a year to live is beating the odds and her cancer. KARK has been following Leslie Harris' story for over a year. She is still waiting a for a life-saving bone marrow match but thrilled she is helping save others. For Leslie and her mother, Rhonda Harris, playing with Leslie's son Ayden is such a joy, it's hard to think this moment almost didn't happen. "They said I had a three percent chance of living, to write my will and call my family," Leslie Harris explained. September 2011 doctors diagnosed Leslie with leukemia while she was in the hospital giving birth. Doctors gave her six months to a year to live without a life-saving bone marrow match. The news sent her family spinning and searching for a match. "I sat down after 24 hours of terror and I was holding the baby and I literally said you have to calm me one way or another," said Rhonda Harris. "My mom got real worried and she started crying and said how are we supposed to find 25.000 donors and I said mom, we only need one. We only need one for me," said Leslie Harris.

    So, Leslie was given 6 months to live. She has lived for over a year now. Without the medications that she takes daily, she would have been dead now though. If Leslie couldn't afford these medications, she would die. Are you willing to let people like Leslie die because they are POOR? Should Leslie have just given up and died to save other people money if she couldn't afford her medicine?
    Leslie is an outlier. Show me that such cases happen in more than 5% of the time and you've got yourself a point. Until then, all you've proven here is that a few people beat the odds. Statically, that will always be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I don't think that anyone is alleging that if patients are given a choice and refuse to go on the Liverpool Care Pathway that the NHS won't continue to pay for their care.
    Then what's your problem?

  2. #392
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Then what the hell good is Medicare and Medicaid? Why even friggin bother?
    Because it hour them, more, a lot more would be without options.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    They gave her a 3% chance. It came up. The odds were 97% that she would die. Horses regularly win races at 33 to one odds.
    I'm not a gambler so you'll have to speak in layman's terms.

  4. #394
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    I can't find any actual statistics but will keep searching. However, notice the part in this article that I highlighted in red.

    Cancer Blog: Lots To Live For!: Cancer Survivors Who Beat the Odds – Attributes of Survivors Who Became Thrivers

    I was first diagnosed with breast cancer at age 39 in 2002 after finding a lump during a breast self-exam. There was no history of breast cancer in my family, so I was shocked, to say the least. Two weeks later my father died. My daughter was three, and my husband and I had been married less than five years. It was a devastating time, but I was heartened when my doctor told me I had no lymph node involvement and my prognosis was excellent.

    After five years, chances are slim cancer will return. But again, I learned you can’t pay attention to statistics. In February 2008, I found a lump in my armpit, and after a series of scans, I learned it had returned as stage IV cancer. I went to a world-renowned cancer hospital only to be told I would certainly die from breast cancer. Luckily I turned it into a challenge to prove the doctor wrong.

    I spent my career in healthcare public relations, and always loved writing patient success stories. I already knew my friend Buzz Sheffield, who was told five years earlier he had months to live. (Today, eight years later, he is alive and well.) I also read Bernie Siegel’s wonderful book, Love, Medicine and Miracles, which talked about Exceptional Cancer Patients and how the worst thing doctors can do is to give death sentences.

    So I started my search for more incredible people who beat the odds of terminal cancer for my book, From Incurable to Incredible. I was searching for answers. It was an extremely personal journey. As someone facing a Stage IV breast cancer diagnosis, you could say my life depended on it.

    My biggest question was: What sets people apart who beat the odds of a terminal or incurable prognosis? As I was putting the 27 stories together, I noticed many similarities among survivors nationwide who shared their stories. Rather than passively accepting their circumstances; they decided to transform them by:

    • Refusing to buy into statistics and the death sentences many of them were given.

    • Never giving up, no matter what. They may have had down times, but were able to pull themselves together and do what they needed to do.

    • Relying on support from family, loved ones, or support groups. These connections gave them a reason to carry on.

    • Choosing to look on the bright side and see the gifts cancer brings.

    • Giving back and making a difference in other people’s lives, whether it was fundraising, lobbying, or supporting other survivors.

    • Having a strong sense of faith. Even if they didn’t believe in God, they believed in something larger than themselves.

    • Being proactive participants in their health care.

    • Viewing their lives as transformed by their experience.

    I continue to share stories of amazing cancer survivors on my blog, Tami Boehmer | Miracle Survivors: inspiration & information for cancer thrivers., and continue to see these common threads. But I’ve found there are people in the cancer community who are offended by these observations. “Are you saying that people who didn’t make it weren’t positive enough?” Absolutely not! Cancer is complex, and I do know people who possess all of these qualities and still succumb to this awful disease … two of them whose stories are in my book. There are no absolutes or guarantees. In the midst of dismal statistics for people with late stage cancer, my purpose is to help show there are possibilities. There is always hope, and there are ways to live life to the fullest … with purpose and joy. As Deb Violette, a lung cancer survivor and advocate featured in my book shared, “This little voice in my head said, 'Why are you focusing on the 90 percent of people who didn’t make it; why don’t you focus on the 10 percent who do?'" She was diagnosed in 1998 and is very alive and well today.

  5. #395
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I can't find any actual statistics but will keep searching. However, notice the part in this article that I highlighted in red.

    Cancer Blog: Lots To Live For!: Cancer Survivors Who Beat the Odds – Attributes of Survivors Who Became Thrivers

    I was first diagnosed with breast cancer at age 39 in 2002 after finding a lump during a breast self-exam. There was no history of breast cancer in my family, so I was shocked, to say the least. Two weeks later my father died. My daughter was three, and my husband and I had been married less than five years. It was a devastating time, but I was heartened when my doctor told me I had no lymph node involvement and my prognosis was excellent.

    After five years, chances are slim cancer will return. But again, I learned you can’t pay attention to statistics. In February 2008, I found a lump in my armpit, and after a series of scans, I learned it had returned as stage IV cancer. I went to a world-renowned cancer hospital only to be told I would certainly die from breast cancer. Luckily I turned it into a challenge to prove the doctor wrong.

    I spent my career in healthcare public relations, and always loved writing patient success stories. I already knew my friend Buzz Sheffield, who was told five years earlier he had months to live. (Today, eight years later, he is alive and well.) I also read Bernie Siegel’s wonderful book, Love, Medicine and Miracles, which talked about Exceptional Cancer Patients and how the worst thing doctors can do is to give death sentences.

    So I started my search for more incredible people who beat the odds of terminal cancer for my book, From Incurable to Incredible. I was searching for answers. It was an extremely personal journey. As someone facing a Stage IV breast cancer diagnosis, you could say my life depended on it.

    My biggest question was: What sets people apart who beat the odds of a terminal or incurable prognosis? As I was putting the 27 stories together, I noticed many similarities among survivors nationwide who shared their stories. Rather than passively accepting their circumstances; they decided to transform them by:

    • Refusing to buy into statistics and the death sentences many of them were given.

    • Never giving up, no matter what. They may have had down times, but were able to pull themselves together and do what they needed to do.

    • Relying on support from family, loved ones, or support groups. These connections gave them a reason to carry on.

    • Choosing to look on the bright side and see the gifts cancer brings.

    • Giving back and making a difference in other people’s lives, whether it was fundraising, lobbying, or supporting other survivors.

    • Having a strong sense of faith. Even if they didn’t believe in God, they believed in something larger than themselves.

    • Being proactive participants in their health care.

    • Viewing their lives as transformed by their experience.

    I continue to share stories of amazing cancer survivors on my blog, Tami Boehmer | Miracle Survivors: inspiration & information for cancer thrivers., and continue to see these common threads. But I’ve found there are people in the cancer community who are offended by these observations. “Are you saying that people who didn’t make it weren’t positive enough?” Absolutely not! Cancer is complex, and I do know people who possess all of these qualities and still succumb to this awful disease … two of them whose stories are in my book. There are no absolutes or guarantees. In the midst of dismal statistics for people with late stage cancer, my purpose is to help show there are possibilities. There is always hope, and there are ways to live life to the fullest … with purpose and joy. As Deb Violette, a lung cancer survivor and advocate featured in my book shared, “This little voice in my head said, 'Why are you focusing on the 90 percent of people who didn’t make it; why don’t you focus on the 10 percent who do?'" She was diagnosed in 1998 and is very alive and well today.
    Chris, this thread isn't discussing those who are diagnosed with cancer saying that they should be floated out to sea on an iceburg. Most everyone's response here that you disagree so vehemently with is saying, in the end stages of a terminal disease, it is time to stop rowing the boat.

    I don't know if you realize what "end stage" means. It's after everything that can realistically be done is done and the disease is still progressing relentlessly. It's when quality of life is in the toilet bowl. That is very different from what you're presenting here.

    And no one in this thread is saying what you are representing.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  6. #396
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm not a gambler so you'll have to speak in layman's terms.
    Let me give you a good analogy which remains within the medical field. Suppose a poisonous snake bites your foot. The toxins will spread through your body, eventually reaching the heart and killing you. However, there is the option of amputating your leg, thereby preventing the poison from reaching your heart. You are forced to choose between your leg or your entire life. This well reflects the decisions of sacrifice to be made in a society, because society and the human body are both networks and contain components with precise roles.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
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    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  7. #397
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I can't find any actual statistics but will keep searching. However, notice the part in this article that I highlighted in red.

    Cancer Blog: Lots To Live For!: Cancer Survivors Who Beat the Odds – Attributes of Survivors Who Became Thrivers

    I was first diagnosed with breast cancer at age 39 in 2002 after finding a lump during a breast self-exam. There was no history of breast cancer in my family, so I was shocked, to say the least. Two weeks later my father died. My daughter was three, and my husband and I had been married less than five years. It was a devastating time, but I was heartened when my doctor told me I had no lymph node involvement and my prognosis was excellent.

    After five years, chances are slim cancer will return. But again, I learned you can’t pay attention to statistics. In February 2008, I found a lump in my armpit, and after a series of scans, I learned it had returned as stage IV cancer. I went to a world-renowned cancer hospital only to be told I would certainly die from breast cancer. Luckily I turned it into a challenge to prove the doctor wrong.

    I spent my career in healthcare public relations, and always loved writing patient success stories. I already knew my friend Buzz Sheffield, who was told five years earlier he had months to live. (Today, eight years later, he is alive and well.) I also read Bernie Siegel’s wonderful book, Love, Medicine and Miracles, which talked about Exceptional Cancer Patients and how the worst thing doctors can do is to give death sentences.

    So I started my search for more incredible people who beat the odds of terminal cancer for my book, From Incurable to Incredible. I was searching for answers. It was an extremely personal journey. As someone facing a Stage IV breast cancer diagnosis, you could say my life depended on it.

    My biggest question was: What sets people apart who beat the odds of a terminal or incurable prognosis? As I was putting the 27 stories together, I noticed many similarities among survivors nationwide who shared their stories. Rather than passively accepting their circumstances; they decided to transform them by:

    • Refusing to buy into statistics and the death sentences many of them were given.

    • Never giving up, no matter what. They may have had down times, but were able to pull themselves together and do what they needed to do.

    • Relying on support from family, loved ones, or support groups. These connections gave them a reason to carry on.

    • Choosing to look on the bright side and see the gifts cancer brings.

    • Giving back and making a difference in other people’s lives, whether it was fundraising, lobbying, or supporting other survivors.

    • Having a strong sense of faith. Even if they didn’t believe in God, they believed in something larger than themselves.

    • Being proactive participants in their health care.

    • Viewing their lives as transformed by their experience.

    I continue to share stories of amazing cancer survivors on my blog, Tami Boehmer | Miracle Survivors: inspiration & information for cancer thrivers., and continue to see these common threads. But I’ve found there are people in the cancer community who are offended by these observations. “Are you saying that people who didn’t make it weren’t positive enough?” Absolutely not! Cancer is complex, and I do know people who possess all of these qualities and still succumb to this awful disease … two of them whose stories are in my book. There are no absolutes or guarantees. In the midst of dismal statistics for people with late stage cancer, my purpose is to help show there are possibilities. There is always hope, and there are ways to live life to the fullest … with purpose and joy. As Deb Violette, a lung cancer survivor and advocate featured in my book shared, “This little voice in my head said, 'Why are you focusing on the 90 percent of people who didn’t make it; why don’t you focus on the 10 percent who do?'" She was diagnosed in 1998 and is very alive and well today.
    Thank you. I'll take at look through that later today when I get the time. But still, if the success stories are statical outliers, they cannot be relied upon to make healthcare policy. I understand that many people do beat the odds when it comes to cancer, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. If a person is elderly, for example, should vast sums of money be spent to keep such an individual alive? Life is often a cruel and cold process, and as long as money is a consideration (and it always is) tough decisions need to be made.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Chris, this thread isn't discussing those who are diagnosed with cancer saying that they should be floated out to sea on an iceburg. Most everyone's response here that you disagree so vehemently with is saying, in the end stages of a terminal disease, it is time to stop rowing the boat.

    I don't know if you realize what "end stage" means. It's after everything that can realistically be done is done and the disease is still progressing relentlessly. It's when quality of life is in the toilet bowl. That is very different from what you're presenting here.

    And no one in this thread is saying what you are representing.
    This is ALL about saving money. When they pull crap like this, what's to stop them from withdrawing care from any other patients that are considered "terminal?" Whether or not they are old, have feeding tubes, oxygen tubes, or what not, it is STILL withholding care to save money. It is SHAMEFUL unless a patient specifically states that is his or her wishes.

  9. #399
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Given her diagnosis, the probability is that based on previous cases, people with that diagnosis at that stage of the illness will be dead within a year. There are always exceptions, but past experience says that for every 100 people in her situation, 97 of them will die in the next year. Three won't, and happily for her she was one of those three. No godlike decisions needed, it's a simple calculation, but it's never 100% accurate, which is why people are never told flatly that "X" will happen, only that it's probable.
    Much like weather forecasting, they can be much more accurate the closer to the event they get. Even then, in the final stage of life, the LCP has an "escape" clause where if the patient shows improvement, they are removed from the care pathway, and treatment is reviewed.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    Then what's your problem?
    People are being put on the Liverpool Care Pathway without consent. Or at least that's what's being alleged.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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