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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #371
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    That was the whole topic of this thread, sedating people and withdrawing life sustaining care without them or their families consenting to it.
    If I found anything disagreeable about what was written in that article, it was that people were not being told about the change in their conditions. If someone is going to be removed from treatment, they (or their family) should be told so that they can at least attempt to muster up the cash to pay for their own treatment. Of course, it's unlikely that most people can afford an average of $10,000 each day, but they should be given that opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.
    It's also up to them to pay for their own treatment. If they can do so, fine. Otherwise, society cannot be burdened with the cost of pointless treatments for people who will die anyhow just to please those who want to pretend that we somehow live in a eutopia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    As much as you don't like it, there are times when society has to put prices on heads. This goes for both the saving or killing of an individual. If the individual can pay the price then, by all means, they are free to do so.
    Exactly. All healthcare is rationed. It always has been. And it always will be.

  2. #372
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    It's also up to them to pay for their own treatment. If they can do so, fine. Otherwise, society cannot be burdened with the cost of pointless treatments for people who will die anyhow just to please those who want to pretend that we somehow live in a eutopia.
    You mean utopia? Good Lord! It is not utopic to expect less greed and more compassion, caring and understanding for the plight of others. I'll bet your ENTIRE outlook would change if it were you, one of your children or someone else that YOU loved. The only reason why YOU don't care is because it doesn't affect you, at least right now.

  3. #373
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    You mean utopia? Good Lord! It is not utopic to expect less greed and more compassion, caring and understanding for the plight of others. I'll bet your ENTIRE outlook would change if it were you, one of your children or someone else that YOU loved. The only reason why YOU don't care is because it doesn't affect you, at least right now.
    Eutopia | Define Eutopia at Dictionary.com

    No. That is simply untrue. If it was me, I would want to die, and get it over with. And even if I didn't, I wouldn't want to burden other people with the expense of keeping me alive when death is eminent. That's foolish and self centered. If it was my kids, I wouldn't want them to suffer needlessly. Remember, we are talking about terminal patients here. People that are dying and are being kept alive with feeding tubes and such. If recovery is likely, that is an entirely different discussion.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    Eutopia | Define Eutopia at Dictionary.com

    No. That is simply untrue. If it was me, I would want to die, and get it over with. And even if I didn't, I wouldn't want to burden other people with the expense of keeping me alive when death is eminent. That's foolish and self centered. If it was my kids, I wouldn't want them to suffer needlessly. Remember, we are talking about terminal patients here. People that are dying and are being kept alive with feeding tubes and such. If recovery is likely, that is an entirely different discussion.
    Well there are two utopias/eutopias I guess.

    Utopia
    Utopia is a community or society possessing highly desirable or perfect qualities. The word was coined in Greek by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, describing a fictional island society in the Atlantic Ocean.

    Okay, you are talking about YOURSELF and what YOUR wishes would be. That does not extend to everyone else. LIKE I said, I type everyday about people are WANT to fight for their lives and don't want to just roll over and give up. You can feel whatever you want and have any ideals that you want, but that doesn't mean other people have to share them. Get it?

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    If I found anything disagreeable about what was written in that article, it was that people were not being told about the change in their conditions. If someone is going to be removed from treatment, they (or their family) should be told so that they can at least attempt to muster up the cash to pay for their own treatment. Of course, it's unlikely that most people can afford an average of $10,000 each day, but they should be given that opportunity.



    It's also up to them to pay for their own treatment. If they can do so, fine. Otherwise, society cannot be burdened with the cost of pointless treatments for people who will die anyhow just to please those who want to pretend that we somehow live in a eutopia.



    Exactly. All healthcare is rationed. It always has been. And it always will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well there are two utopias/eutopias I guess.

    Utopia
    Utopia is a community or society possessing highly desirable or perfect qualities. The word was coined in Greek by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, describing a fictional island society in the Atlantic Ocean.

    Okay, you are talking about YOURSELF and what YOUR wishes would be. That does not extend to everyone else. LIKE I said, I type everyday about people are WANT to fight for their lives and don't want to just roll over and give up. You can feel whatever you want and have any ideals that you want, but that doesn't mean other people have to share them. Get it?
    I never said they couldn't. Do you even read my posts? It's almost as if you have me on ignore. If people want to "fight" as you state it, fine. Let them pay to suffer. As pointless as it is, it's certainly their right to do so.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So we won't be offing old people, just old ones whom we've determined have no purpose for continuing their lives.
    If Maggie doesn't want to say it then I will. In fact, you can look just 2 posts before yours. As much as people want to say a human life is priceless, there is still cost/benefit analysis which has to be done for the good of society. I can give you numerous examples.
    - Suppose there was an outbreak of a rapid terminal illness which untreatable and spreads to everyone they come close to. As soon as you realize this, the sooner you decide to let them pass away the more lives you will save.
    - Would you sell 100 Americans into slavery to another country if that was their asking price to save 1 life? Similarly, I don't think many seniors would choose a heavy burden on their grandchildren to keep them around 1 more year.
    - If a tragic accident was about to happen and you only has enough time to rescue 1 person, do you save the 5 year old or 25 year old? This was the immediate instinct of a teacher who died trying to protect a student in the recent shooting.
    Read the last quote in my signature block. While you can't put a precise amount of time to live on anyone, you can determine a pretty accurate continuous probability measure based on the circumstances.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Have your read your link here and the concerns with the mail article?
    Yeah, but they are referring to a different Mail article.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    If I found anything disagreeable about what was written in that article, it was that people were not being told about the change in their conditions. If someone is going to be removed from treatment, they (or their family) should be told so that they can at least attempt to muster up the cash to pay for their own treatment. Of course, it's unlikely that most people can afford an average of $10,000 each day, but they should be given that opportunity.
    I don't think that anyone is alleging that if patients are given a choice and refuse to go on the Liverpool Care Pathway that the NHS won't continue to pay for their care.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Yeah, but they are referring to a different Mail article.
    Perhaps. But I think you are largely misreading it. There doesn't to be a policy of pushing people to death. Instead, at worse, someone acted against policy. It also has nothing to do with anything here.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I asked the question for verification: "You would have us start offing old people to save money?"
    Oh, I see now. It was you who talked about offing old people.

    If you think Harry meant "stick a needle in their arms and kill them"? That's on you. This whole discussion has been in the context of the OP -- encouraging people to enter hospice care...continuing to aggressively treat terminal illnesses. I don't need to pick apart people's posts to find the worst-of-the-worst in order to have an intelligent discussion. You?
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