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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #361
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Doctors should be honest. Many of them aren't. They take a Don't Ask Don't Tell approach to dying. We, all of us, deserve more than that. We deserve choice. We deserve facts, even when they are difficult to hear. We deserve to hear the wonderful things hospice can do for us and for our loved ones. We deserve to know that the chemotherapy they're giving us is not going to cure us.

    We all need to face the fact that we are going to die. And our families need to face the fact that we're going to die. Every single adult should have a healthcare power of attorney. Every family should insist their loved ones get them. Every daughter: her mom, her dad, her spouse. Vice versa. Why don't we? Because we don't want to face the fact that we are going to die. And we don't want to answer the hard questions. Shame on us.

    Families need to be more understanding and willing to step aside to let their loved ones make their own decisions -- while they are still lucid enough to do so. Dying people sometimes feel guilty not to keep fighting...they don't want to break their daughters', sons', spouses' hearts. Their last gift, if you will.

    If patients aren't called to address their own mortality by their doctors, then these difficult decisions are left to family to make when the very end stages come. A terrible burden. Awful.

    When I was in the hospital last year, a male nurse came into my room late at night, knowing I was awake, and let me know what "the racket" had been. "A 93-year-old woman coded a while ago. We performed CPR, used a defibrillator on her..." He was crying. "Her family wouldn't sign a DNR on her," he said. He was relieved they were unsuccessful, telling me that her ribs were broken, she was oxygen deprived... Said he prayed they'd be unsuccessful, as her family wanted to keep her as lucid as possible and her pain was under-medicated. *Shaking Head Here*

    No thanks, Maggie says. That is just plain wrong.
    The point you're missing is that there ARE people who WANT to fight for their lives.

  2. #362
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    But the post you quoted, was one of mine, and I said nothing about pulling all treatment if a patient has an expected lifespan of 6 more months. It really depends on the status of the patient, and not the time he is expected to live. As an example, the people I've known with lung cancer, lead a relatively meaningful life up until shortly before their death, but people with brain tumors (depending on where the tumor is), have multiple life-altering complications such as seizures, loss of motor function, loss of speech, confusion, etc.
    Well sorry. I didn't realize you were just commenting on one issue.

  3. #363
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The point you're missing is that there ARE people who WANT to fight for their lives.
    Fight for their lives with what??? Apricot seeds? If a disease is incurable, it's incurable. If it's in the end stages of terminal, game over.

    I am dying from liver cancer. My kidneys are failing. I am 98 years old. I want to keep living. I demand a kidney transplant. "Why won't Medicare pay for it???" Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The scenarios being referred to by many in this thread are the very same thing.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Fight for their lives with what??? Apricot seeds? If a disease is incurable, it's incurable. If it's in the end stages of terminal, game over.

    I am dying from liver cancer. My kidneys are failing. I am 98 years old. I want to keep living. I demand a kidney transplant. "Why won't Medicare pay for it???" Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The scenarios being referred to by many in this thread are the very same thing.
    It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.
    I'm sorry, when did I say it wasn't?
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  6. #366
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.
    As much as you don't like it, there are times when society has to put prices on heads. This goes for both the saving or killing of an individual. If the individual can pay the price then, by all means, they are free to do so.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Would you believe it if the NHS itself confirmed the story?

    What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

    Facts are facts whether Murdoch or some liberal rag tells them. What a cheap, lazy cop out to dismiss a story just because it appears in a paper with an editorial slant you don't like.
    Have your read your link here and the concerns with the mail article?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Wow. Just wow. Please cite Post #s where anyone has suggested "putting people down." Can't intelligent conversations about this important subject take place without over-the-top hyperbole?
    Really? We're going to go back to you saying that nobody here suggested that?

    I said:


    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    If you didn't like it as much as I do, you would realize how preposterous it is. Of all the stupid **** we spend money on, you would have us start offing old people to save money? What the hell kind of society would we be running here?
    I asked the question for verification: "You would have us start offing old people to save money?"

    Here's a good one picked from the mix:

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not "old people", but "old people who are so sick, there is no purpose for continuing their life."

    Medicare is going to be the largest budget item we have and we won't have enough to pay for it, plus everything else.
    That's one of those reality things again.

    You can't have all the medical care you want, especially for elderly people, the money just isn't there, without punitive taxation on everyone else.
    So we won't be offing old people, just old ones whom we've determined have no purpose for continuing their lives.

    You liked this post so I assumed you agreed with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  9. #369
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Make assisted suicide legal and then allow each individual who wants to end his life, do so on his own terms. There are a lot of very sick people, mainly cancer victims, who are terrified of having to go through the horrible pains of their terminal cancer and who would much rather die in peace.

    Don't put the government in charge of determining this, because they will just screw it up. Leave it up to each individual. What happens if you do put the government in charge of making such determinations is that you offer power to a group of a people who will basically order murders on senior citizens because they have "finished their job" in life. Man is not some animal that works and when he is done being able to work, he is put down. If you adopt that model of a society, or even that model of thinking... well... its all downhill from there.

    EDIT1: The money-for-life exchange is an exchange that happens very often in the world. Healthcare is a commodity most of the times and people pay for it. Whether it is a doctors appointment to get a complete physical or getting expensive medicine for your illness... it is a trade that happens at a great frequency.

    this is the sad reality of the situation. Life costs money. But it is not the job of other people to determine the value of each individual. It is the job of each individual to determine how much his life is worth to him and how much he values it. Why? Because thats just how it is. The moment you monetize people is the moment you take part of them being human away from them and people themselves become commodities. There are people who have nothing to live for and yet live on. There are people who have everything to live for and kill themselves. There are people who barely lived a quarter of their lives and kill themselves and there are old people who long passed their expected lifespan and make a lot of other people around them very happy and still make a difference in the world.

    To make a bureaucratic machine that will collectively determine the fate of a group of people based on their age, is stupid. To make a bureaucratic machinery to determine for each individual within an age group their fate, is ineffective. How the hell can you do that. better give all options available to people and let them decide. A man is the best bureaucratic machine to himself. He make all his paperwork, all his decisions and all his judgements better than any group of people can make for him. And it costs the taxpayer little to nothing to maintain this "machinery".
    Last edited by Rainman05; 01-03-13 at 06:01 AM.

  10. #370
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So we won't be offing old people, just old ones whom we've determined have no purpose for continuing their lives.

    You liked this post so I assumed you agreed with it.
    What's the cost ceiling, for you, to keep someone alive, who has lived the most one can generally live in modern times?
    What other programs should we cut, to continue to fund this?

    Reality sucks, but in reality, when things become too expensive.
    There will be cuts in services.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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