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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #351
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    LOL Really? Isn't that like saying nobody survives a nursing home? Heck, lets just call them death traps since nobody gets out alive. meeeh

    Speaking of which there seems to be a lot of elderly abuse in some "private" nursing homes. Does that bother you or is it just government funded hospice care?

    You know there was a time when families took care of their own elderly folks and it was just part of life. Today, society has removed themselves from the painful ugliness of dying by shuttering the elderly and dying away so we don't have to see it. Gawd, I can't wait to get old.
    The Liverpool Care Pathway isn't nursing home care. The whole purpose of it is to hasten death. Not that I object to that if that's what the patient wants.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  2. #352
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Actually, that's a term I coined, and absolutely accurate, too. The LCP always ends up with the patient dying, which can be a good thing if it's done ethically.
    About 450,000 people die every year in NHS hospitals. Approximately 130,000 of those dying people have been treated using the LCP, as their death was imminent, and their passing was eased. There are audits showing the high quality of clinical care given where the pathway is used. It's a valuable tool in improving end of life care.
    It would be as foolish to deny that it may be badly followed or misused on occasion, as to decry an entire system because of that.
    There is a review process built into the pathway. If a patient's condition changes or improves, they may be removed from it, Though all patients should be imminently dying to begin it, not all patients starting the pathway, die on it.
    Last edited by Manc Skipper; 01-02-13 at 10:52 PM.
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  3. #353
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    [QUOTE=ReformCollege;1061312857]
    Appeal to probability fallacy. Just because doctors are wrong sometimes, does not mean they are wrong most of the time. In fact, if they weren't right MUCH more often then everyone else, then we wouldn't need them.
    Obviously, you've completely missed the point.

    Are you suggesting we don't need doctors?
    Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

    Because it sounds like you are suggesting we only need doctors when they tell you what you want to hear.
    Good Lord.

    This post is just so ridiculous and FULL of hyperbole, I don't even know where to begin.

  4. #354
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    Appeal to probability fallacy. Just because doctors are wrong sometimes, does not mean they are wrong most of the time. In fact, if they weren't right MUCH more often then everyone else, then we wouldn't need them. Are you suggesting we don't need doctors? Because it sounds like you are suggesting we only need doctors when they tell you what you want to hear.
    This is really bugging me. Do you actually think that if the doctor gives you X amount of months/years to live, that is it? All the doctors can do is make an educated guess - THAT IS ALL. There is nothing definitive in this type of situation. Like the Cancer Center commercial says, people do NOT have an expiration date!

  5. #355
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    This is really bugging me. Do you actually think that if the doctor gives you X amount of months/years to live, that is it? All the doctors can do is make an educated guess - THAT IS ALL. There is nothing definitive in this type of situation. Like the Cancer Center commercial says, people do NOT have an expiration date!
    That educated guess is typically pretty right-on. There are a few exceptions to the rule, but there is ample statistical evidence to make a prediction, with a good degree of accuracy.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    That educated guess is typically pretty right-on. There are a few exceptions to the rule, but there is ample statistical evidence to make a prediction, with a good degree of accuracy.
    Oh so if a doctor says you have six months to live, just pull all treatment? Even against the patient's wishes so that people can save money?

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Oh so if a doctor says you have six months to live, just pull all treatment? Even against the patient's wishes so that people can save money?
    Who in the hell said that? You implied that doctors are making educated guesses, as if that carries no merit, but it does carry merit. Some diseases have pretty specific and real mortality rate/time frames, especially advanced cancers.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Who in the hell said that? You implied that doctors are making educated guesses, as if that carries no merit, but it does carry merit. Some diseases have pretty specific and real mortality rate/time frames, especially advanced cancers.
    That's what the thread is about.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's what the thread is about.
    But the post you quoted, was one of mine, and I said nothing about pulling all treatment if a patient has an expected lifespan of 6 more months. It really depends on the status of the patient, and not the time he is expected to live. As an example, the people I've known with lung cancer, lead a relatively meaningful life up until shortly before their death, but people with brain tumors (depending on where the tumor is), have multiple life-altering complications such as seizures, loss of motor function, loss of speech, confusion, etc.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Oh so if a doctor says you have six months to live, just pull all treatment? Even against the patient's wishes so that people can save money?
    Doctors should be honest. Many of them aren't. They take a Don't Ask Don't Tell approach to dying. We, all of us, deserve more than that. We deserve choice. We deserve facts, even when they are difficult to hear. We deserve to hear the wonderful things hospice can do for us and for our loved ones. We deserve to know that the chemotherapy they're giving us is not going to cure us.

    We all need to face the fact that we are going to die. And our families need to face the fact that we're going to die. Every single adult should have a healthcare power of attorney. Every family should insist their loved ones get them. Every daughter: her mom, her dad, her spouse. Vice versa. Why don't we? Because we don't want to face the fact that we are going to die. And we don't want to answer the hard questions. Shame on us.

    Families need to be more understanding and willing to step aside to let their loved ones make their own decisions -- while they are still lucid enough to do so. Dying people sometimes feel guilty not to keep fighting...they don't want to break their daughters', sons', spouses' hearts. Their last gift, if you will.

    If patients aren't called to address their own mortality by their doctors, then these difficult decisions are left to family to make when the very end stages come. A terrible burden. Awful.

    When I was in the hospital last year, a male nurse came into my room late at night, knowing I was awake, and let me know what "the racket" had been. "A 93-year-old woman coded a while ago. We performed CPR, used a defibrillator on her..." He was crying. "Her family wouldn't sign a DNR on her," he said. He was relieved they were unsuccessful, telling me that her ribs were broken, she was oxygen deprived... Said he prayed they'd be unsuccessful, as her family wanted to keep her as lucid as possible and her pain was under-medicated. *Shaking Head Here*

    No thanks, Maggie says. That is just plain wrong.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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