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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #271
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Many doctors subscribe to "Don't Ask Don't Tell." I disagree that curative treatment should only be withheld by the choice of the patient (or his/her family). When one is terminal, there is no curative treatment. That is the hard truth that must be told.
    By more than one doctor. I harp on this because, I am PERSONALLY the product of second and third opinions. Had my parents accepted the word of the first doc they saw, I can only imagine how completely differently, and likely very negatively, my life would have turned out. But instead, they REFUSED to accept that "truth" from the first couple of doctors, and finally found one willing to try the unconventional. What you are suggesting is that we take that right away, or to some extent, limit it. And I'll fight you every step of the way on it.
    Now some nitpicking of my own -- because, even in this very serious subject, it made me smile. Lordy! "I should be free to . . . try for a better diagnosis." I'm sure you meant outcome. Ha!
    True enough, lol. Though I meant diagnosis. Diagnosis =/= outcome. Which is why getting a second and third and so one opinion is so important.
    And, yes, I agree with your observation -- just like abortion.
    Which is why I don't frequent those threads. Only so many times a person can read baby killing.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    That's what we were already told. She didn't want to go to Hospice or give up the doctors said the insurance (Humana) would not pay for further Hospital stay or treatment. So what's your point?
    OK, that's a different story...I am thinking completely in terms of social health insurance, as in, medicare/medicaid. A health care system that is funded by tax dollars.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I don't believe she said that, but I agree with you if in fact the LCP is not informing the patients or their families before putting them in LCP. But it does seem that only The Daily Telegraph have been making these claims.....



    But the doctors, nurses, researchers and the families of the LCP patients seem to tell a different story.....



    The Daily Telegraph is know for it's outrageous and sensationalized claims and editorials, is it not? Because it seems a bit of stretch that 60,000 patients and families didn't know that they or their loved ones were put in LCP without their knowledge, especially if the families were there by their bedsides and free to ask the doctors and nurses questions. Of course, it is possible that it might happened to a handul of patients and their families, but to say it's a cronic problem or policy then I'm somewhat skeptical...especially when considering the source of the allegations, Rupert Murdoch's, The Daily Telegraph.
    The Daily Telegraph is not part of Rupert Murdoch's empire. It is owned by the Barclay brothers.. not related to the bank.

    The Daily Telegraph is however a conservative leaning paper which means it and its readers are pretty much against the NHS which explains its stories and attitude towards the NHS.
    PeteEU

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The Daily Telegraph is not part of Rupert Murdoch's empire. It is owned by the Barclay brothers.. not related to the bank.

    The Daily Telegraph is however a conservative leaning paper which means it and its readers are pretty much against the NHS which explains its stories and attitude towards the NHS.
    To some extent you can harp about the LEAN a particular piece of news takes. Yes, you can project something in a good or bad light.


    Are you, however, suggesting there are outright lies in the OP? Because last I checked, a lie, once printed, is libel, and that's illegal. At least, it is in the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That's not their decision to make, these people aren't dogs. That's the patient's and the family's decision to make. You really want a doctor to diagnose you as terminal, then put a pillow over your head? Or would you like to maybe get a second opinion or choose how you want to spend your last days?
    If the government is paying the bill, why isn't it their decision to make? You can't have someone else pay your bills and still expect to retain full authority over every decision about your life. Don't like it? Don't have socialized medicine.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    If the government is paying the bill, why isn't it their decision to make? You can't have someone else pay your bills and still expect to retain full authority over every decision about your life. Don't like it? Don't have socialized medicine.
    The people who would be put down have been paying into medicare for their entire working lives. When it comes time to cash a bit of that out, it's "Sorry homie, we mismanaged your money and are facing bankruptcy, we're going to have to put you down."

    Germany has socialized medicine, and their entire system costs half of what ours does, from my experience is better quality in a lot of aspects, and they don't put down anybody.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    To some extent you can harp about the LEAN a particular piece of news takes. Yes, you can project something in a good or bad light.


    Are you, however, suggesting there are outright lies in the OP? Because last I checked, a lie, once printed, is libel, and that's illegal. At least, it is in the US.
    I'm not going to get in the middle of your discussion over the details, but to me a lie IS where something is put in an inappropriate context thereby pushing an agenda. Even if the facts are not "incorrect" without their proper context, they are a lie.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    The people who would be put down have been paying into medicare for their entire working lives. When it comes time to cash a bit of that out, it's "Sorry homie, we mismanaged your money and are facing bankruptcy, we're going to have to put you down."

    Germany has socialized medicine, and their entire system costs half of what ours does, from my experience is better quality in a lot of aspects, and they don't put down anybody.
    Huh? Who said we were putting people down over cost?

    UNH only does it over terminal illness, where the cost of treatment is not worth the chances of a cure and the additional years of life that would be added. This is so they maximize care being directed to those who have the greatest chance to survive and have the most to benefit from it. Their goal is to maximize quality and minimize cost and there are going to be some people who are marginalized because of that.

    Now, if they were actually putting people down for just being old, then I would be pissed as hell, but as far as I know, it is only in terminal illness situations; regardless of if it is consented or not.


    Personally, I don't agree with the system from a scientific standpoint. By marginalizing those groups, we could possibly be turning a blind eye to research opportunities for treating terminal diseases that might lead the diseases to not be terminal. But its hard to say whether we can afford the enormous health care expenditures on terminal illness in the meantime.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    What is it that you think is happening? What do you fear for the inferior US "system"?
    Why? Because the government has never been so large it has so much power, what i fear is a total take over by the government, we are losing our freedom for our security.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    I'm not going to get in the middle of your discussion over the details, but to me a lie IS where something is put in an inappropriate context thereby pushing an agenda. Even if the facts are not "incorrect" without their proper context, they are a lie.
    Lie by omission. I won't disagree with this, but I will state that trying to enforce that would kill the media. People, as a general rule, have very short attention spans. They don't want to have to read something that gets 9 inches of text in the paper, 4 inches of which is back ground info. Typically.

    Editing down is important, and often, it's the context, and not the actual "news" itself, that gets axed. Editors assume, usually rightly so, that a person is willing to read, say, 150 words on a story. The one present, because of context, has 230 words. What would you rather they cut, the piece of news itself, or the back ground story that provides context?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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