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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #261
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Please quote where I say that it's OK for a doctor to decide to kill a patient.
    NP, it ran like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told but minister still says controversial end-of-life plan is 'fantastic' | Mail Online



    The "care pathway" is where they sedate patients and then withdraw life sustaining care, basically killing them off.

    Put the government in charge of health care and then see what happens when the government gets short of money.

    The BHS basically pays a bounty for every patient finished off this way. 130,000 patients are killed this way yearly, apparently almost half of them without consent.

    The British Health Minister calls the pathway "a great step forward."
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It is a great step forward, in my opinion. When someone has a terminal disease and is in the last stages, it is absolutely foolish to keep spending tens of thousands -- hundreds of thousands -- prolonging the inevitable. It is horribly difficult on the person as well as on their families. There is only one reason for doctors to treat clearly-terminal illnesses: they make more money keeping you interminably alive than by letting you die a peaceful death.

    As for paying them a bounty. That's just pejorative bull****.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That's not their decision to make, these people aren't dogs. That's the patient's and the family's decision to make. You really want a doctor to diagnose you as terminal, then put a pillow over your head? Or would you like to maybe get a second opinion or choose how you want to spend your last days?
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It is exceedingly difficult for family to make that decision. Most families? They can't do it. Actually? Loving pet owners are sometimes kinder to their dogs than they are to their mothers.
    I asked you if you really wanted a doctor to diagnose you as terminal, then put a pillow over your head. You replied with: "It is exceedingly difficult for family to make that decision. Most families? They can't do it."

    The entire theme of the thread has been whether or not we should be putting old people down to save money. So you're now saying we shouldn't be doing that?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #262
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Yeah, I remember. Lies, Lies and more Lies. That wasn't a conservative hot-key phrase -- that was bull****.
    There are 27 pages to this thread...and I'm lazy. I'm pretty sure that somewhere in there, you have explained how this system really works, as I'll grant the early arguments that the source used in the OP is terrible.

    Mind explaining how it's done, and THEN I'll judge it?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  3. #263
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    NP, it ran like this:

    I asked you if you really wanted a doctor to diagnose you as terminal, then put a pillow over your head. You replied with: "It is exceedingly difficult for family to make that decision. Most families? They can't do it."

    The entire theme of the thread has been whether or not we should be putting old people down to save money. So you're now saying we shouldn't be doing that?
    Doctors should have the motivation (and the ethics) to tell patients and their families the truth after a period of time. Patients and their families usually don't ask the tough questions. Honestly? They don't want to know. They shouldn't have to ask. Doctors should be honest. We should demand they be honest. And the focus should be, not on treating a terminally-ill patient, but on helping them make their final journey.

    We're getting there. More and more, doctors are telling patients that "It's time to get hospice set up for your mom." Medicare addresses this issue quite well, actually. Medicare will pay for hospice care once a doctor has diagnosed someone as "terminal" -- meaning they probably have six months or less to live. At that point, all "curative treatment" is withheld and the patient is kept as comfortable as possible until the end. This is the USA "Care Pathway." It's just not used often enough and in the patient's best interest.

    The patient should be told. If the patient isn't lucid, then the next-of-kin or healthcare power of attorney should be told. And it should not be a choice without going through the court system.

    Your hyperbole has made this discussion very difficult. Pillows over one's head...putting them down...ridiculous.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Doctors should have the motivation (and the ethics) to tell patients and their families the truth after a period of time. Patients and their families usually don't ask the tough questions. Honestly? They don't want to know. They shouldn't have to ask. Doctors should be honest. We should demand they be honest. And the focus should be, not on treating a terminally-ill patient, but on helping them make their final journey.

    We're getting there. More and more, doctors are telling patients that "It's time to get hospice set up for your mom." Medicare addresses this issue quite well, actually. Medicare will pay for hospice care once a doctor has diagnosed someone as "terminal" -- meaning they probably have six months or less to live. At that point, all "curative treatment" is withheld and the patient is kept as comfortable as possible until the end. This is the USA "Care Pathway." It's just not used often enough and in the patient's best interest.

    The patient should be told. If the patient isn't lucid, then the next-of-kin or healthcare power of attorney should be told. And it should not be a choice without going through the court system.

    Your hyperbole has made this discussion very difficult. Pillows over one's head...putting them down...ridiculous.
    I don't think anybody in this entire thread has suggested we continue providing expensive surgeries to terminal patients. There are however an unbelievably high number of people here who think we shouldn't even be providing hospice care and should be putting them down because hospice care will "bankrupt medicare and the country". If you're saying that's not what you believe, then I believe you.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  5. #265
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    MaggieD;1061311058]Doctors should have the motivation (and the ethics) to tell patients and their families the truth after a period of time. Patients and their families usually don't ask the tough questions. Honestly? They don't want to know. They shouldn't have to ask. Doctors should be honest. We should demand they be honest. And the focus should be, not on treating a terminally-ill patient, but on helping them make their final journey.
    Couple things here. I highlighted a few words, because I feel it's important to go into some nit picky. When you say should, I am assuming, then, that you would have that they be REQUIRED to do so...in this case, be up front and honest about a patient's chances. I'm not sure, but I think they already are legally required to be upfront and honest on those things. I also highlighted truth, because that's a very dangerous word. You say truth as if it's an end all be all, but it's not. Doctors are not masters of the universe, they can't even all agree with each other. If a patient, or a patient's next of kin, wants to cling to life, to a ray of hope that YOU, or SOMEONE else, doesn't believe is even there, some doctor's perception of the "truth" of the situation SHOULD have absolutely NO bearing on that choice. One doctor telling a patient they are going to die SHOULD not be the final word. That's why we have the ability to seek second opinions. And third opinions. And fourth. And so on. That's the beauty of our healthcare, in this country. Some doc tells me a I got three months to live, I am FREE to seek out another one, maybe the best in the field, to try for a better diagnosis.
    We're getting there. More and more, doctors are telling patients that "It's time to get hospice set up for your mom." Medicare addresses this issue quite well, actually. Medicare will pay for hospice care once a doctor has diagnosed someone as "terminal" -- meaning they probably have six months or less to live. At that point, all "curative treatment" is withheld and the patient is kept as comfortable as possible until the end. This is the USA "Care Pathway." It's just not used often enough and in the patient's best interest.
    All curative treatment should only be with held by the CHOICE of the patient. Period. Doctor's orders be damned.

    The patient should be told. If the patient isn't lucid, then the next-of-kin or healthcare power of attorney should be told. And it should not be a choice without going through the court system.

    Your hyperbole has made this discussion very difficult. Pillows over one's head...putting them down...ridiculous.
    He is using the exact hyperbole that is often bandied about in abortion topics.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  6. #266
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    As someone who has implemented the LCP with patients and carers, let me inject some reality to the thread.

    What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

    The Mail is a toxic rag with a toxic agenda.
    You disparage 'The Mail", yet quoted from your article...

    Care minister Norman Lamb is quoted as saying: "It is clear that everyone wants their loved ones' final hours of life to be as pain free and dignified as possible, and the Liverpool Care Pathway is an important part of achieving this aim."

    "However, as we have seen, there have been too many cases where patients were put on the pathway without a proper explanation or their families being involved. This is simply unacceptable."

  7. #267
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    My mother went in the hospital for another round of recurrent heart failure. Short of breath, nauseated, weak etc. The doctors after a week of testing and making her sicker couldn't help and sent her to Hospice. She was so weak she couldn't sit up or feed herself, more less use the bathroom. The doctor there said it would drag on for another 2 weeks with her getting worse till she died. Nobody who ever lived loved her more than me or wanted to see her recover but seeing her suffer more was becoming unbearable. One of the head nurses said I'm going to give her a shot of morphine and valium to ease her symptoms and asked my mom and I did we approve? I thought she would not be unconscious that long or that the meds were going to facilitate the end, but they did. By time I realized what they were doing I knew it was merciful and I couldn't have consciously done it myself. She didn't suffer near what she could have. Was there a chance of any recovery? I'd say very little and for a very short time before the misery restarted over again. Her heart was done. She was so weak at home that for 4 1/2 years she rarely left the house and laid on the couch most the time. The last few months her appetite was completely fading with her being ill. The medication they gave her at Hospice kept her unconscious and unaware of the death process, which if she had been lucid would've been hell. It was enough.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    My mother went in the hospital for another round of recurrent heart failure. Short of breath, nauseated, weak etc. The doctors after a week of testing and making her sicker couldn't help and sent her to Hospice. She was so weak she couldn't sit up or feed herself, more less use the bathroom. The doctor there said it would drag on for another 2 weeks with her getting worse till she died. Nobody who ever lived loved her more than me or wanted to see her recover but seeing her suffer more was becoming unbearable. One of the head nurses said I'm going to give her a shot of morphine and valium to ease her symptoms and asked my mom and I did we approve? I thought she would not be unconscious that long or that the meds were going to facilitate the end, but they did. By time I realized what they were doing I knew it was merciful and I couldn't have consciously done it myself. She didn't suffer near what she could have. Was there a chance of any recovery? I'd say very little and for a very short time before the misery restarted over again. Her heart was done. She was so weak at home that for 4 1/2 years she rarely left the house and laid on the couch most the time. The last few months her appetite was completely fading with her being ill. The medication they gave her at Hospice kept her unconscious and unaware of the death process, which if she had been lucid would've been hell. It was enough.
    And how would you feel if you both decided you wanted to continue treatment, and you were told no?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #269
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Couple things here. I highlighted a few words, because I feel it's important to go into some nit picky. When you say should, I am assuming, then, that you would have that they be REQUIRED to do so...in this case, be up front and honest about a patient's chances. I'm not sure, but I think they already are legally required to be upfront and honest on those things. I also highlighted truth, because that's a very dangerous word. You say truth as if it's an end all be all, but it's not. Doctors are not masters of the universe, they can't even all agree with each other. If a patient, or a patient's next of kin, wants to cling to life, to a ray of hope that YOU, or SOMEONE else, doesn't believe is even there, some doctor's perception of the "truth" of the situation SHOULD have absolutely NO bearing on that choice. One doctor telling a patient they are going to die SHOULD not be the final word. That's why we have the ability to seek second opinions. And third opinions. And fourth. And so on. That's the beauty of our healthcare, in this country. Some doc tells me a I got three months to live, I am FREE to seek out another one, maybe the best in the field, to try for a better diagnosis.
    All curative treatment should only be with held by the CHOICE of the patient. Period. Doctor's orders be damned.

    He is using the exact hyperbole that is often bandied about in abortion topics.
    Many doctors subscribe to "Don't Ask Don't Tell." I disagree that curative treatment should only be withheld by the choice of the patient (or his/her family). When one is terminal, there is no curative treatment. That is the hard truth that must be told.

    Now some nitpicking of my own -- because, even in this very serious subject, it made me smile. Lordy! "I should be free to . . . try for a better diagnosis." I'm sure you meant outcome. Ha!

    And, yes, I agree with your observation -- just like abortion.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  10. #270
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And how would you feel if you both decided you wanted to continue treatment, and you were told no?
    That's what we were already told. She didn't want to go to Hospice or give up the doctors said the insurance (Humana) would not pay for further Hospital stay or treatment. So what's your point?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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