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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #241
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    All right, let's get real here. About $$ and about the whole discussion of "when do we stop treating a dying man"?
    I never said to "treat" a dying man, I said to not off them to save cash if he doesn't want to be offed. I'm not suggesting we start forking out huge expensive surgeries for someone who's more than likely going to die. A breathing machine, some medication, and a cot are not that expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Do you really think that the $99 a month seniors pay for Medicare comes anywhere close to paying for their medical bills?? What have people paid into the system? They've paid in a whopping 1.45% of their income only since 1983. Now, if you're 12 years old, I suppose this sounds like forever; but for baby boomers retiring now? It's only half of their working career, at best. At best. So, let's look at the numbers: let's be generous!! An average annual income of $50K for 29 years = Medicare premium payments that total $21,000. One simple surgery, 3 days in the hospital? Kiss that all goodbye. One knee replacement? Probably all of that and more.
    Precisely why our medical system is broken. In the rest of the world none of those things cost anywhere near that much. Here in Germany everybody is treated for everything, and the doctors still "make it rain". *The entire system costs half as much, and they dont' put anybody down like dogs.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Medicare is unsustainable. That is a given. But know what? That's not the most important part of the basis discussions like this. The most important part is that it is not humane to continue to aggressively treat dying patients. It's inhumane to put a terminally ill person on a breathing machine long-term. It's wrong to shoot the poisons we call chemotherapy into a terminally ill patient (making them sicker than DOGS) for the sake of two more months.
    That's not your decision to make. You don't get to decide when someone is done living, THEY do. I don't know what your faith is, and I'm not trying to assume with this statement, but I find that most religious people hold to the thought that "Well, if he dies now he'll be in a better place, in heaven, having a great time." I don't see life that way. In my view, when you die, you are dead, and that is it. Any experience is better than not existing in my opinion. I would never force anyone to continue living against their will, just as I would never force anyone to die against their will. That is the fundamental difference between you and me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    We simply have to learn that death is a natural part of life. And we have to learn to have these discussions without people insinuating that those who wish to have these discussions are heartless.

    If you want to live on a breathing machine having food pumped into your stomach through a hole in your side while you lie helpless in bed for months on end waiting for your heart to give out or your kidneys to fail? Bed sores infecting? Breathing tube infecting? Stomach tube infecting? Intractable pain. That's on you. As for most of the rest of us?? That's a scene from a very scary horror movie. And money has nothing to do with it.

    Death is a natural part of life, but life is precious, and should not be squandered or extinguished against someone's will, simply because the government and lobbies have ruined our medical system and mismanaged our senior's contributions. If it's not about money, as you just claimed, then it comes down to you just wanting to make a life and death decision for someone else. That is NOT your decision to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #242
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I never said to "treat" a dying man, I said to not off them to save cash if he doesn't want to be offed. I'm not suggesting we start forking out huge expensive surgeries for someone who's more than likely going to die. A breathing machine, some medication, and a cot are not that expensive.


    Precisely why our medical system is broken. In the rest of the world none of those things cost anywhere near that much. Here in Germany everybody is treated for everything, and the doctors still "make it rain". *The entire system costs half as much, and they dont' put anybody down like dogs.

    That's not your decision to make. You don't get to decide when someone is done living, THEY do. I don't know what your faith is, and I'm not trying to assume with this statement, but I find that most religious people hold to the thought that "Well, if he dies now he'll be in a better place, in heaven, having a great time." I don't see life that way. In my view, when you die, you are dead, and that is it. Any experience is better than not existing in my opinion. I would never force anyone to continue living against their will, just as I would never force anyone to die against their will. That is the fundamental difference between you and me.


    Death is a natural part of life, but life is precious, and should not be squandered or extinguished against someone's will, simply because the government and lobbies have ruined our medical system and mismanaged our senior's contributions. If it's not about money, as you just claimed, then it comes down to you just wanting to make a life and death decision for someone else. That is NOT your decision to make.
    It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who continually assumes another is coming from a wicked place. Most of what you have assumed about me in this post is incorrect. But frankly? It's 3:15 AM here in Chicago; I should be asleep. So. Tomorrow is another day.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who continually assumes another is coming from a wicked place. Most of what you have assumed about me in this post is incorrect. But frankly? It's 3:15 AM here in Chicago; I should be asleep. So. Tomorrow is another day.
    That is EXACTLY what you have been saying from the beginning. You think people should be euthanized against their will because it's more "humane" and cost effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post

    Dang. I almost Liked your post. This last paragraph? Well, I think I'm just going to have to accept that you and I will never agree.
    It does not matter whether you agree with American culture or not. But you are powerless to stop Americans from being Americans and trying to make the country better after all its in our heritage.

    The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die.

    GEORGE WASHINGTON, address to the Continental Army before the battle of Long Island, Aug. 27, 1776


    You have given in to submission. Personally I cannot give in and I cannot be broken. I had a conversation with my Dad right before he went into surgery to remove most of his intestines that has died because of the reaction to tainted Chinese manufactured heparin. At the end of that conversation he told me that he was not giving up that he "was going to beat this".

    Resolve is what America is about not submission. Defeatism is when someone(s) have no resolve to make things right. I am sure that you personally do not want another person to die its just that you lack the resolve to find a way to help them.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That is EXACTLY what you have been saying from the beginning. You think people should be euthanized against their will because it's more "humane" and cost effective.
    I don't believe she said that, but I agree with you if in fact the LCP is not informing the patients or their families before putting them in LCP. But it does seem that only The Daily Telegraph have been making these claims.....

    "...In 2009 The Daily Telegraph wrote that the pathway has been blamed by some doctors for hastening the death of some mortally ill patients, and possibly masking signs that the patient is improving.[20] This story was criticised by the Association for Palliative Medicine and the anti-euthanasia charity Care Not Killing as inaccurate.[2][21] In contrast, The Times welcomed the pathway as an attempt to address patients' wishes and warned about "alarmist" press coverage of the scheme.[22][23]..."
    But the doctors, nurses, researchers and the families of the LCP patients seem to tell a different story.....

    "...Initial assessments of the effects and value of the pathway were largely positive. A 2003 study published in the International Journal of Palliative Nursing found that nurses saw the pathway as having a generally positive effect on patients and their families.[7]

    A 2006 study published in the same journal found that, despite some "initial skepticism", the doctors and nurses who were interviewed saw the approach as having a valuable place in hospice care,though its use on 'dying' patients on general wards was not addressed.[8] A multi-centre study was published in 2008 in the Journal of Palliative Medicine that found that nurses and relatives thought that the approach improved the management of patients' symptoms, but did not significantly improve communication.[9] The authors concluded that they "consider LCP use beneficial for the care for dying patients and their family."[9]

    A 2009 study published in Journal of Pain and Symptom Management studied the impact of the pathway on the end-of-life care of over three hundred patients and found that it produced a large decrease in the use of medication that might shorten life and increased patients' involvement in their medication and care.[10] A 2009 survey of 42 carers providing the pathway was published in the Journal of Palliative Medicine, it found that 84% were "highly satisfied" with the approach and that it enhanced patient dignity, symptom management and communication with families.[11]
    Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Daily Telegraph is know for it's outrageous and sensationalized claims and editorials, is it not? Because it seems a bit of stretch that 60,000 patients and families didn't know that they or their loved ones were put in LCP without their knowledge, especially if the families were there by their bedsides and free to ask the doctors and nurses questions. Of course, it is possible that it might happened to a handul of patients and their families, but to say it's a cronic problem or policy then I'm somewhat skeptical...especially when considering the source of the allegations, Rupert Murdoch's, The Daily Telegraph.

  6. #246
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I don't believe she said that, but I agree with you if in fact the LCP is not informing the patients or their families before putting them in LCP. But it does seem that only The Daily Telegraph have been making these claims.....



    But the doctors, nurses, researchers and the families of the LCP patients seem to tell a different story.....



    The Daily Telegraph is know for it's outrageous and sensationalized claims and editorials, is it not? Because it seems a bit of stretch that 60,000 patients and families didn't know that they or their loved ones were put in LCP without their knowledge, especially if the families were there by their bedsides and free to ask the doctors and nurses questions. Of course, it is possible that it might happened to a handul of patients and their families, but to say it's a cronic problem or policy then I'm somewhat skeptical...especially when considering the source of the allegations, Rupert Murdoch's, The Daily Telegraph.
    It isn't particularly important whether this story is true or not to me, because it's happening in the UK, and if they want to murder their old people, that's their problem. I'm here to argue the premise. She said from the beginning that the OP (which she took at face value to be true) was a great step forward. The stance of the people I've been arguing with in this thread so far has been that it will simply cost the taxpayers too much to keep terminal people on life support, so we should "put them out of their misery" in order to save some bucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    It does not matter whether you agree with American culture or not. But you are powerless to stop Americans from being Americans and trying to make the country better after all its in our heritage.

    The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die.

    GEORGE WASHINGTON, address to the Continental Army before the battle of Long Island, Aug. 27, 1776


    You have given in to submission. Personally I cannot give in and I cannot be broken. I had a conversation with my Dad right before he went into surgery to remove most of his intestines that has died because of the reaction to tainted Chinese manufactured heparin. At the end of that conversation he told me that he was not giving up that he "was going to beat this".

    Resolve is what America is about not submission. Defeatism is when someone(s) have no resolve to make things right. I am sure that you personally do not want another person to die its just that you lack the resolve to find a way to help them.
    Good thing some of the people in this thread weren't the ones deciding whether or not your father should have had this surgery. Some of them might have deemed him too expensive, and too old to be worth it.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 01-02-13 at 07:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  7. #247
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    typically a barbiturate, paralytic, and potassium solution are always more cost effective than providing informed consent so that proper decisions can be made....Good grief.
    What are you raving about?
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by cado20 View Post
    This IS what happens when you put the Government in-charge of healthcare, this IS what could happen in America. Its sad.
    What is it that you think is happening? What do you fear for the inferior US "system"?
    Don't work out, work in.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It is a great step forward, in my opinion. When someone has a terminal disease and is in the last stages, it is absolutely foolish to keep spending tens of thousands -- hundreds of thousands -- prolonging the inevitable. It is horribly difficult on the person as well as on their families. There is only one reason for doctors to treat clearly-terminal illnesses: they make more money keeping you interminably alive than by letting you die a peaceful death.

    As for paying them a bounty. That's just pejorative bull****.
    I agree, but it should be left up to the individual if they want to keep fighting or not. It's wrong when the government or doctors start stepping in and making those kinds decisions for us without our input.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    It isn't particularly important whether this story is true or not to me, because it's happening in the UK, and if they want to murder their old people, that's their problem. I'm here to argue the premise. She said from the beginning that the OP (which she took at face value to be true) was a great step forward. The stance of the people I've been arguing with in this thread so far has been that it will simply cost the taxpayers too much to keep terminal people on life support, so we should "put them out of their misery" in order to save some bucks.
    I think it does matter whether it's true or not, in fact that is the point that seems to escape you because you want to believe so badly that article is true, when it doesnt appear that is.

    Nor do I believe Maggie took the article at face value. What I think she said and I'm ad libing, was that keeping the terminally ill alive with false hope, enormous suffering, useless and painful surguries, or to die an undignified death with tubes coming out every oriface, not to mention the financial burden that destroys entire families....was more cruel and inhumane than letting a person die a natural and peaceful death with hospice care and/or in the comfort of their own home surrounded by their family.

    Good thing some of the people in this thread weren't the ones deciding whether or not your father should have had this surgery. Some of them might have deemed him too expensive, and too old to be worth it.
    It's difficult to tell if you have an biased agenda or just blind to fact and reason by letting your emotions get the best of you.

    Btw, it costs taxpayers $55 billion a year to keep the terminally ill alive. Personally, I think that money would be better spent helping to keep those that are not terminally ill, alive and healthy to go on and live productive lives.....

    Taxpayer Cost of Keeping the Terminally Ill Alive

    "Every medical study ever conducted has concluded that 100 percent of all Americans will eventually die." I hope that isn't news to you, RabidAlpaca.

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