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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #231
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    You would rather they had a blank check? (NICE is about cost-effectiveness, not rationing.)
    typically a barbiturate, paralytic, and potassium solution are always more cost effective than providing informed consent so that proper decisions can be made....Good grief.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    This IS what happens when you put the Government in-charge of healthcare, this IS what could happen in America. Its sad.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It is a great step forward, in my opinion. When someone has a terminal disease and is in the last stages, it is absolutely foolish to keep spending tens of thousands -- hundreds of thousands -- prolonging the inevitable. It is horribly difficult on the person as well as on their families. There is only one reason for doctors to treat clearly-terminal illnesses: they make more money keeping you interminably alive than by letting you die a peaceful death.

    As for paying them a bounty. That's just pejorative bull****.
    As opposed to here in the U.S. where they do everything they can to prolong terminal peoples' lives of being plugged into machines until they can sap all the insurance or medicare they can all while bankrupting the patients' family.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I know that is what it has been sold as,



    And this



    So, to your point that it isn't explicitly a "death panel" as laid out by language, but the result will be the same.
    No, it won't. Forbes, an opinion and from a problematic source, is inaccurate in their assessment. Nothing prevents anyone from buying more, getting more. It is another scare effort that skews the reality. There is no death panel in either language or result.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    Sorry, but that is not reality. Reality is that healthcare is a business and people are in it for money. Everything is about money. So yes, one must consider dollars and cents when deciding what care is administered to those who cannot or will not support themselves. Do you want to pay my bills?
    The reality is that not everything is about money. And there is a stark difference between those that cannot and will not support themselves and a those who at the moment are unable to pay for life saving medical care.

    You mentioned reality, as if there is no way to intervene in reality. Myself I aim higher I dont give in so easily that I would accept that today in modern times that we should let people die at of need of money to pay for medical care. And fortunately your way of thinking is in the minority. BTW it is only people like you that are talking about the lazy idiots the rest of us have observed that compassion can be met with sacrifices. Your problem is that all you are concerned about is deadbeats but I am not even talking about deadbeats, I am talking about the reality that some people are just not available to pay huge amounts of money for a service that would save their life. We are actually talking about people that worked very hard all their lives or children that could not chose their parents nor their families.

    But then compassion is the last thing on your mind when it comes to your bank account isnt Evenstar?

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    Sorry, but that is not reality. Reality is that healthcare is a business and people are in it for money. Everything is about money. So yes, one must consider dollars and cents when deciding what care is administered to those who cannot or will not support themselves. Do you want to pay my bills?
    These people paid into medicaid for their entire working lives, and when it comes time to pay for a single life support machine and a cot, medicaid tells them to **** off. Tell me again how not getting something you paid for makes you a deadbeat.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I understand. You're offended with things that I've said based on your very personal and heart-felt experience with your mom. I get it. If you have taken my relating my own personal experiences with the death of a spouse and a father and the decisions we made as being in some kind of pissing contest with you, that was not my intention at all.
    Ok lets leave our personal tragedies aside for the moment then. And I apologies since i did get emotional, I guess since the 10th is edging up... well you know.

    I know of no other way to relate on DP than to share my personal experiences. I firmly believe that our country cannot afford to think that "life at any price" is the responsibility of our government.
    The bold is your arguments against an mysterious argument in which I never gave. Who made those claims and assertions? I never did.

    Ill make that clear for you since you seem to think that I said those things.

    I never said that government was responsible for medical care. I said that we the people are responsible for we the people.

    And FFS I never said anything about quantity of life vs quality of life. That was all you.

    And, further, I believe that quality of life far outweighs quantity. As a society, we've just got to grow up and face those hard truths.
    Perhaps it is your argument that needs mature? Countless generations of Americans never gave in as you are right now. Americans have resolve and ambition we are not the type of people who give up on a challenge, at least not all of us. Its all about priorities and the will to make the world a better place. Money is a factor in that challenge but a prosperous country can work miracles you could say that Americans have worked these miracles before and we will do it again. I have faith in this country and its system of government. Many Americans will not bow down and give up just because a pessimistic section of society thinks that we should. I am for one glad that our countries founders were not defeatists like yourself, or we would all be bowing to the King right now crying about the hard truths of monarchies.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    These people paid into medicaid for their entire working lives, and when it comes time to pay for a single life support machine and a cot, medicaid tells them to **** off. Tell me again how not getting something you paid for makes you a deadbeat.
    All right, let's get real here. About $$ and about the whole discussion of "when do we stop treating a dying man"?

    Do you really think that the $99 a month seniors pay for Medicare comes anywhere close to paying for their medical bills?? What have people paid into the system? They've paid in a whopping 1.45% of their income only since 1983. Now, if you're 12 years old, I suppose this sounds like forever; but for baby boomers retiring now? It's only half of their working career, at best. At best. So, let's look at the numbers: let's be generous!! An average annual income of $50K for 29 years = Medicare premium payments that total $21,000. One simple surgery, 3 days in the hospital? Kiss that all goodbye. One knee replacement? Probably all of that and more.

    Medicare is unsustainable. That is a given. But know what? That's not the most important part of the basis discussions like this. The most important part is that it is not humane to continue to aggressively treat dying patients. It's inhumane to put a terminally ill person on a breathing machine long-term. It's wrong to shoot the poisons we call chemotherapy into a terminally ill patient (making them sicker than DOGS) for the sake of two more months.

    We simply have to learn that death is a natural part of life. And we have to learn to have these discussions without people insinuating that those who wish to have these discussions are heartless.

    If you want to live on a breathing machine having food pumped into your stomach through a hole in your side while you lie helpless in bed for months on end waiting for your heart to give out or your kidneys to fail? Bed sores infecting? Breathing tube infecting? Stomach tube infecting? Intractable pain. That's on you. As for most of the rest of us?? That's a scene from a very scary horror movie. And money has nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Perhaps it is your argument that needs mature? Countless generations of Americans never gave in as you are right now. Americans have resolve and ambition we are not the type of people who give up on a challenge, at least not all of us. Its all about priorities and the will to make the world a better place. Money is a factor in that challenge but a prosperous country can work miracles you could say that Americans have worked these miracles before and we will do it again. I have faith in this country and its system of government. Many Americans will not bow down and give up just because a pessimistic section of society thinks that we should. I am for one glad that our countries founders were not defeatists like yourself, or we would all be bowing to the King right now crying about the hard truths of monarchies.
    Dang. I almost Liked your post. This last paragraph? Well, I think I'm just going to have to accept that you and I will never agree.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 01-02-13 at 04:57 AM.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You fail to understand economies of scale.
    It's cheaper to build a few hospitals serving one, geographic location, than it is to build several hospitals serving dispersed communities.

    It's not dick waging, it's reality.
    Oh I agree.. but that aint how it is.. not by a long shot. Fact is the US has fewer hospitals, fewer emergency rooms, fewer doctors and fewer nurses than many of the nations you are compared too... per capita that is.... and you pay far more than everyone else.

    At the end of a the day, those small remote communities exist in every country. Hospitals tend to be put in the large population areas and then people have to come to said hospitals... not the other way around. So again.. using the "size of my country" excuse is just idiotic. No one puts a 400 bed hospital in a town of 3000 people.
    PeteEU

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    These decisions should be made with medical personnel, in conjunction with family members making an informed decision. If you have a bureaucratic panel making this decision based purely on CBA then you are going to have poor quality decisions being made.
    I agree fully.. and that is what happens in the UK and elsewhere. There are no bean counters that do that.. the Daily Mail is wrong. When a terminal patient is not treated, then it is the doctor that makes that call and sometimes yes.. without talking to the family. Every situation is different. Having just lost my mother last week, then I know how it feels and making such decisions are far from easy and are overwhelming. That is why I personal am grateful for professional doctors that can make those calls when needed.
    PeteEU

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