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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #191
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    Should society pay for expensive treatment for a terminally ill person? Where do we draw the line?

    I have no problem keeping such a person alive (however pointless it may be) if they or their own family foots the bill.
    We should draw the line in a humane way. Telling people to **** off because they have no money is not humane it is ****ing evil and the pinnacle of assholeness. This is not the dark ages or back in the caveman days. Kindness is not measured by money. If we can put a man on the moon we can save a dying human being or at least make their death humane. Shoving terminal people out hospital doors just because their family have no money divides the monsters from humans.


    Do you have kids? A man shoots up a school killing and injuring 6 and 7 year olds, what you are asserting is that the surviving children that did have enough money should have been left to die. What you are asserting is that money is more important than human life. Sounds a bit greedy and self centered. Only a monster would knowing kill a child because the kids family was poor. By law an parent or whoever is responsible for a child can be convicted of murder for neglect of a childs welfare that leads to death. Which is exactly what you are promoting.

  2. #192
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    We should draw the line in a humane way. Telling people to **** off because they have no money is not humane it is ****ing evil and the pinnacle of assholeness. This is not the dark ages or back in the caveman days. Kindness is not measured by money. If we can put a man on the moon we can save a dying human being or at least make their death humane. Shoving terminal people out hospital doors just because their family have no money divides the monsters from humans.


    Do you have kids? A man shoots up a school killing and injuring 6 and 7 year olds, what you are asserting is that the surviving children that did have enough money should have been left to die. What you are asserting is that money is more important than human life. Sounds a bit greedy and self centered. Only a monster would knowing kill a child because the kids family was poor. By law an parent or whoever is responsible for a child can be convicted of murder for neglect of a childs welfare that leads to death. Which is exactly what you are promoting.

    Well, then it is a good thing that what you are promoting happening, does not take place in the US. In the US most seniors have medicare, and are treated relatively well in palliative care. Those who are indigent, or other circumstances also receive EoL care, in many cases pro bono by the hospitals, and the costs are spread throughout the system...Could things be better? Sure....But I don't think it is accurate to paint a picture of Poor people just being turned away from hospitals and told to F off....That is untrue.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The death panel cometh.
    It's here already. It's called insurance companies who don't want to render the services that it's customers have paid for, otherwise known as a denial letter.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I found this from 2009...



    And from a study done by Columbia University...



    So my conclusion is that although it may be working for you at the moment, Germany has huge problems with its system, that may force it in the coming years to open it to more private insurance options.
    So even if the costs double, we'll still be providing full health care at the same cost that you're paying today. I don't see the downside.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It's here already. It's called insurance companies who don't want to render the services that it's customers have paid for, otherwise known as a denial letter.
    There are cap limits on health care insurance plans. It's one of the few measures than can keep costs down at all. Suppose I buy a health care insurance plan and pay $400 per month, for 20 years. That would be $96,000 paid in for my health care, in case I need it for an unexpected health care problem, such as a heart attack, requiring cardiac artery bypass grafts. The cost of heart bypass is typically going to run in the neighborhood of $75,000-$125,000, depending on how many arteries need bypass, and complicating factors. That's just the hospital/surgical procedure/thoracic surgeon/anesthesia bill. That doesn't take into account the follow-up visits, and drugs that you will be on after your surgery. The money you have paid in for the past 20 years will already have been spent on your care.
    Assume you are diagnosed with cancer of one type or another. You will be looking at possibly surgery, chemotherapy, and/or radiation treatments, and you will also likely be requiring additional hospitalizations for complications and effects of the curative treatments. This runs up your health care costs quickly, and your initial "investment" of health care dollars will have been met in short order.
    At that point, you are a cost, and are not contributing to your health care expenses. Multiply this scenario by all the citizens in this country, half of which are not paying income taxes, and a huge number of which are already dependent on government for their very existence via SS, medicare, medicaid, and welfare programs.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  6. #196
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, then it is a good thing that what you are promoting happening, does not take place in the US. In the US most seniors have medicare, and are treated relatively well in palliative care. Those who are indigent, or other circumstances also receive EoL care, in many cases pro bono by the hospitals, and the costs are spread throughout the system...Could things be better? Sure....But I don't think it is accurate to paint a picture of Poor people just being turned away from hospitals and told to F off....That is untrue.
    Um I didnt say that. I was responding to someone and what they were promoting in case you didnt notice. Please take a moment to read what they said.


    But since you brought it up, this sounds like a F you if I ever heard one Jacksonville woman dies after insurer repeatedly denies her a liver transplant | jacksonville.com


    My point though is that we need to find a solution to the question of choosing life over money. By this I do not support what is not working or what will never work. What I am saying is that if a person is dying and a procedure will save their life it would be unethical to stop that live saving procedure because the patient lacks money to pay for it.


    No I do not have the answer right off the top of my head. But I do think that there is an answer that would satisfy those interested that actually have good morals. Ethically though letting someone die that cannot afford a surgery is the same as letting someone die when you could have done something. There is a difference though one is individual guilt while the other would be state forced death if a law was enacted making it mandatory to be able to pay for life saving medical care or they will just let you die.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    There are cap limits on health care insurance plans. It's one of the few measures than can keep costs down at all. Suppose I buy a health care insurance plan and pay $400 per month, for 20 years. That would be $96,000 paid in for my health care, in case I need it for an unexpected health care problem, such as a heart attack, requiring cardiac artery bypass grafts. The cost of heart bypass is typically going to run in the neighborhood of $75,000-$125,000, depending on how many arteries need bypass, and complicating factors. That's just the hospital/surgical procedure/thoracic surgeon/anesthesia bill. That doesn't take into account the follow-up visits, and drugs that you will be on after your surgery. The money you have paid in for the past 20 years will already have been spent on your care.
    Assume you are diagnosed with cancer of one type or another. You will be looking at possibly surgery, chemotherapy, and/or radiation treatments, and you will also likely be requiring additional hospitalizations for complications and effects of the curative treatments. This runs up your health care costs quickly, and your initial "investment" of health care dollars will have been met in short order.
    At that point, you are a cost, and are not contributing to your health care expenses. Multiply this scenario by all the citizens in this country, half of which are not paying income taxes, and a huge number of which are already dependent on government for their very existence via SS, medicare, medicaid, and welfare programs.
    That's the issue, a heart bypass shouldn't cost 75-125 thousand. Even if you paid the doctors thousands an hour, it wouldn't amount to a fraction of that. Our health care system is bloated and is focused far more on "making-it-rain" profits than keeping our population healthy. I support the free market 100%, but the way our government and country is structured due to health care lobbies is certifiably insane. Poor people simply can't afford proper health care. If we provide nothing else, this of all things should be available.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #198
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That's the issue, a heart bypass shouldn't cost 75-125 thousand. Even if you paid the doctors thousands an hour, it wouldn't amount to a fraction of that. Our health care system is bloated and is focused far more on "making-it-rain" profits than keeping our population healthy. I support the free market 100%, but the way our government and country is structured due to health care lobbies is certifiably insane. Poor people simply can't afford proper health care. If we provide nothing else, this of all things should be available.
    The bolded is easy to say, when you are unaware of the costs incurred by the hospital providing the services.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What is the "job" of the pathway clinic?
    Its a hospice.

    As Manc Skipper already posted: What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices


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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The bolded is easy to say, when you are unaware of the costs incurred by the hospital providing the services.
    Don't act like the costs aren't bloated, you know they are. Hospitals charge insurance companies a thousand bucks for an IV bag. Gee, I wonder why health insurance is so damn expensive here. There are two fundamental things that our society should be able to afford: Education and healthcare. I dont' care if you have to eat ramen every day and buy your clothes from good will, you should be able to see a doctor when you're sick.

    If we can't afford those two things, we might as well be a **** hole like afghanistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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