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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #181
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    I think the right misses the point and job of the Pathway clinic.


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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Who said EU countries were better? Hell, they seem to be just killing people for money.
    Never said the EU countries were better.

    And American insurance companies are not killing people for money?
    PeteEU

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evenstar View Post
    I'm currently working on my living will, and will have it notarized next week. I decided to do this after working in a nursing home and seeing for myself the consequences of not having one. I'd recommend it for everyone, no matter how young.
    Good for you, Evenstar!!!! If there was one thing I could put on everyone's New Year's Resolutions List, it would be that. Soooo important. Good for you!!!
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Actually it does Pete.
    Population per square mile/kilometer, with a greater density allowing more efficiency.

    The U.S. has 84 people per square mile, while the UK has 650, Germany has 609, France has 289.
    It's not just population density, it's also, location of where most people live.
    Gaw what a load of horsecrap. We get it, the US is a big country.. but that is totally irrelevant when it comes to healthcare and healthcare statistics.

    And most people live in cities or around them, so using the excuse that many people live in the middle of no where and hence cant get good healthcare is... pretty lame.
    PeteEU

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Gaw what a load of horsecrap. We get it, the US is a big country.. but that is totally irrelevant when it comes to healthcare and healthcare statistics.

    And most people live in cities or around them, so using the excuse that many people live in the middle of no where and hence cant get good healthcare is... pretty lame.
    You fail to understand economies of scale.
    It's cheaper to build a few hospitals serving one, geographic location, than it is to build several hospitals serving dispersed communities.

    It's not dick waging, it's reality.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Never said the EU countries were better.

    You didn't? I certainly didn't say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    ...The "we got a bigger population so therefore we cant do as countries who are smaller and better than us.."
    So I understand you were interpreting what I said, but you were off.

    And American insurance companies are not killing people for money?
    I am not getting into whether or not an entity (government vs. Insurance companies) are making life choice for incentive. Both are equally intolerable to me, especially when you consider that both entities use non medical personal to arrive at CBA decisions.

    These decisions should be made with medical personnel, in conjunction with family members making an informed decision. If you have a bureaucratic panel making this decision based purely on CBA then you are going to have poor quality decisions being made.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I think the right misses the point and job of the Pathway clinic.
    What is the "job" of the pathway clinic?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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  8. #188
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Wow. Well, there's not much chance of my ending up with your witch's curse. My life and death is planned out. Tom, my significant other I've been with for 13 years, isn't my HCPOA. My cousin is. I've had long talks with her, and she is quite aware of the 3-day rule (as in 3minutes/3days/3weeks). I've made my wishes very clear to her, and I trust that she will abide by them with not a guilty bone in her body.
    I stand by what I said. COPD, in the long run, gets nothing but worse from day of diagnosis. Live long enough? One will die from it or its complications. That is NOT the same thing as the terminal illnesses I've referred to in my posts.
    Are you trying to tell me that you think that COPD patients have it easy compared to what your Husband went through?

    I find what you are saying here very disturbing and rude. "That is NOT the same thing as the terminal illnesses I've referred to in my posts." The hell it aint and you are very misinformed if you truly think otherwise. You obviously have not been around someone with COPD or perhaps have only been around people with COPD not in the final stage. In fact from your statement here I would say that you are completely ignorant of what happens in the course of COPD. I have watched other loved ones die from cancer (Grandpa, Mother in law, Step dad, My neice) and my dad died in 2007 from Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia after suffering a massive heart attack. Look that up. The end stages of cancer and the end stages of COPD are pretty close to them same. COPD is a terminal illness not a chronic disease you would be wise to understand that and exactly what it means.

    Money was not a consideration in my late husband's case -- nor my father's. Both were on Medicare. My late husband elected not to take chemotherapy. They'd have been thrilled to administer it to him at an average cost of $50,000 to the system. And the hospital where my dad died? They would have also been thrilled to keep him in intensive care for six months until he finally gave up the ghost.

    These decisions should always be made for the good of the patient. No where did I say anything differently. Not for the good of the family. Not to assuage their conscience. Not to keep them from feeling guilty. Not because they can't bear to make hard decisions. For the good of the patient. Always. And keeping a terminal patient alive until their poor little bodies finally give up is often not in the best interest of the patient at all.
    Both of these paragraphs have nothing to do with me or with anything that I said. Actually most of everything that you have been saying to me is a complete strawman argument. I am not sure why you believe that lying in my face was a good idea but please stop it now.



    Again since you totally ignored what I actually said and just started making up ****, my concerns are that the patient will lose their freedoms and liberties because of some people who are more concerned with money rather than doing whats right. The other side of the coin of hospitals wanting extra care for financial gain that are pointless,is insurance companies wanting nothing done to save money. Just let them die they are going to die anyways. Had this attitude been prevalent with my Mom she would have died the first night in the hospital in 1998. My Mom did not want to suffer anymore than most people. And I did not make her suffer by holding onto her and not letting her go (like what you so rudely insensitively implied) off and on she had a DNR order that I signed and witnessed each time. But she did not want to die and at times though they were few she didnt feel that it was time to leave yet. More often than not she wanted to die. But something inside her made her keep trying despite doctor after doctor giving her ridiculously short prognosis of death. Each doctors visit amazed her doctors they couldnt explain why she wasnt dead yet. In 1998 we went top a conference for end stage COPD patients where we learned about end of life options. Periodically we would attend refresher of that conference and each time the other people that attended last time became smaller and the new people became larger.

    Dont compare what we went through because just as I have no clue what you went through, you have no clue what i went through. And frankly I am disgusted that you would be childish enough to think that one terminal illness is a pissing contest.

    I have nothing more to say to you.

  9. #189
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Why would I report you?

    My husband died of lung cancer after a year-long battle. He had a tumor in his lungs the size of an orange. They removed one lobe. The surgery was excruciatingly painful. Horrible for him. The first day after surgery, they took him off most pain medication; he couldn't even talk he was in so much pain. He took radiation every day for six weeks -- we had to drive 150 miles every day for the treatments. The drive was extremely painful for him every single day.

    The doctor recommended chemotherapy...said he'd take it for the rest of his life, although it might extend it. "Would you do it if you were him?" I asked. "If I had a son graduating from college, and I wanted to be there for his graduation? I might. Otherwise, I would not." (He didn't take it.)

    Anyhow, before he recovered from the surgery? The cancer had moved to his spine. To his spleen. To his kidneys. He was in intractable pain for the rest of his life. Could barely walk. Only in the last few months did they medicate it away. And when they did that? He was gone as well. His death was horrible. I was with him every step of the way.

    My dad had a stroke. He lived with it for nine miserable years. Hated his life. He could barely walk. Had lost any quality of life he had left. His wife had to work, so the kids helped out every single day of those nine years. He was always falling...one day he fell and really hurt his back. The pain wouldn't subside. It left him crying like a baby and in agony every time he moved. Doctors couldn't find a reason for it...they put him in the hospital where he got pneumonia and his kidneys failed. The kidney doctor told us matter-of-factly that he'd be on dialysis at least three days a week for the rest of his life. "How about his back pain," we asked. "We can't do anything about that." We placed him in hospice at the hospital. He died in two days.

    Don't call me a monster. I've been there and bought the T-Shirt. My heart's been broken twice -- with more in the headlights. I don't know how you can possibly take the position you're taking when you withdrew life support from your mother. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?
    I want to say something to you, but I don't have the words.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I know I sound like a broken record, but the Germans manage to provide 100% full coverage for every citizen on half the per capita and half the percentage of GDP costs of our system. They don't kill old people here, and they don't turn away the poor. We're doing something wrong.
    I found this from 2009...

    Costs in the German system are shared between employers and workers, whose premiums are pegged to income, the paper reports. Everyone is obliged to pay into the plan — the world’s oldest publicly sponsored health-care system that dates back to Bismark in 1883 — and the government is looking to boosting employee contributions to cover a $11.1 billion shortfall expected next year, according to the WSJ.But that’s only a short-term answer. “Germans already pay 8% of their gross wages into the centralized health-care pot, while their employers contribute an amount equal to 7% of gross wages,” the paper reports. Longer term, analysts expect Germany will be forced to make painful cuts to the system.
    “Yet in a country where quality universal health care is considered a basic right, such proposals are extremely controversial,” the WSJ says. Contrast that with overhaul efforts going the other way in the U.S., where proposals to extend health-care coverage to more Americans are proving extremely controversial as well.

    Germany’s Health Care Suffers From Some Familiar Ailments - Health Blog - WSJ
    And from a study done by Columbia University...

    German Health Care IndustryTrend Germany is likely to experience a slower economic growth due to an increasingly
    challenging global economic environment and the debt crisis that affects the European
    society. In addition, declining external demand will limit the net export and lead to a drop
    in the growth of GDP and an increase in unemployment rate. Consequently, the
    government will make a bigger contribution to statutory health plans.
    Knowing that statutory health care system is financed by payroll taxes and
    employers contribute to the premiums as well, the government will have to take a
    tremendous reform to focus on this system.


    German Health Care IndustrySummary
    Overall, Germany has a very well-developed health care industry with a rich
    history, huge markets, large figures of providers, goal-oriented regulation guidelines and
    sound actuarial foundations. However, on the other hand, Germany is facing conundrums
    such as an aging population, rising costs, and declining health care quality.
    Though a
    humongous number of reforms have been executed, the problems seem to persist. Hence,
    Germany needs to find efficient and innovative ways to solve them.

    http://ce.columbia.edu/files/ce/pdf/...tu-germany.pdf
    So my conclusion is that although it may be working for you at the moment, Germany has huge problems with its system, that may force it in the coming years to open it to more private insurance options.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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