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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #141
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Perhaps I've just been spoiled by Germany when it comes to health care. Whether looking per capita, or as a percentage of GDP, costs here for the entire medical system are about half of what it is in the states. Here nobody who gets cancer is told to **** off, they don't kill their old people who cost too much, and everyone who is sick gets treated.

    And what are your tax rates for say $50K per year income?
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    And who are you to judge me? The doctors did not tell your mother she was terminally ill in 1998. That may be what you heard, but that's not what they said. COPD is a progressively and debilitating fatal illness. That is a very different thing from terminal brain cancer or terminal lung cancer. I'd suggest you understand that other people besides yourself have compassion for people. And sometimes? The most compassionate thing we can do??? Is to let them go. If you don't get that? That's on you.

    Stop judging others with a broken yardstick.
    What the **** you want me to do send you the ****ing papers stating when she was diagnosed as being terminal? And I did not say that you were not being compassionate because of your own experiences with your loved ones. Im not even sure how you jumped to that conclusion. What I am asserting is that you cannot possibly know the circumstances and wishes of individuals that you will never meet or even hear their cases.

    All I am doing is objecting to your assumption that all terminally ill people should be allowed to die and that no one should waste money on them because you assume that everyone will want to die without giving a fight even if that fight is hopeless. There is no one size fits all care for the terminally ill. Each individual case has its own dynamics and your generalizations are of no help to any of those people. I agree that there are cases where the time to let go is appropriate and I never said otherwise.

    You seem to be more worried about money than anything here, most likely you were not that way with your own loved ones. But from you have said it sounds like you dont apply that to other people.

    ANd dont even attempt to school me on COPD it is a genetic defect in my family I will most likely die the same way that my Mom did. Which was the same way that her Mom, sister and brother died. All of which I was witness too as well.



    ANd to the people asserting that dying people have no right to demand that other people pay for their care, I hope you end up the victim of your own assertions.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And what are your tax rates for say $50K per year income?
    What does it matter when the entire medical system costs half per capita and half the percentage of the GDP than the US? The high taxes here go to welfare recipients and the Greeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #144
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What the **** you want me to do send you the ****ing papers stating when she was diagnosed as being terminal? And I did not say that you were not being compassionate because of your own experiences with your loved ones. Im not even sure how you jumped to that conclusion. What I am asserting is that you cannot possibly know the circumstances and wishes of individuals that you will never meet or even hear their cases.

    All I am doing is objecting to your assumption that all terminally ill people should be allowed to die and that no one should waste money on them because you assume that everyone will want to die without giving a fight even if that fight is hopeless. There is no one size fits all care for the terminally ill. Each individual case has its own dynamics and your generalizations are of no help to any of those people. I agree that there are cases where the time to let go is appropriate and I never said otherwise.

    You seem to be more worried about money than anything here, most likely you were not that way with your own loved ones. But from you have said it sounds like you dont apply that to other people.

    ANd dont even attempt to school me on COPD it is a genetic defect in my family I will most likely die the same way that my Mom did. Which was the same way that her Mom, sister and brother died. All of which I was witness too as well.



    ANd to the people asserting that dying people have no right to demand that other people pay for their care, I hope you end up the victim of your own assertions.
    Should society pay for expensive treatment for a terminally ill person? Where do we draw the line?

    I have no problem keeping such a person alive (however pointless it may be) if they or their own family foots the bill.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    What does it matter when the entire medical system costs half per capita and half the percentage of the GDP than the US? The high taxes here go to welfare recipients and the Greeks.

    I am not trying to be difficult here, I am interested. Just tell me, What are your Taxation rates for income levels at $50K per year?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    First you kill unborn babies, then partial birth babies,then old people, then retarded people then Jews and gypsies.
    hy·per·bo·le
    /hīˈpərbəlē/
    Noun
    Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
    Synonyms
    exaggeration - hyperbola - overstatement

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Shouldn't be too hard to prove its a lie. Yes?
    Has been repeatedly. Don't you remember it was even lie of the year. They spell it out pretty well, as do others. Surely you don't need these links repeated?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    That's a cop out. If you have evidence that the statements of fact, quotes from the Health Minister and the report, are not true then you ought to provide it rather than relying on bias against a particular publication.

    Meanwhile, the basic facts are confirmed in the NHS's own house organ:

    What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

    There are two issues here getting mixed up. One is whether the Liverpool Care Pathway is ever ethical. I'm of the opinion, and mainstream medical opinion in the US supports this, that patients have a right to refuse any and all care, including feeding and hydration, so I have no problem with the Care Pathway if a patient so chooses. The other issue is whether doctors have the right to impose this on people who have not been told and their families have not been told that the doctors are doing it. That's a violation of the same right to autonomy and unethical.
    Then don't use poor sources, and seek clarification and not weak links between un similar things.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #149
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    First you kill unborn babies, then partial birth babies,then old people, then retarded people then Jews and gypsies.
    You forgot the lumberjacks. The lumberjacks come between old people and the retarded.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What the **** you want me to do send you the ****ing papers stating when she was diagnosed as being terminal? And I did not say that you were not being compassionate because of your own experiences with your loved ones. Im not even sure how you jumped to that conclusion. What I am asserting is that you cannot possibly know the circumstances and wishes of individuals that you will never meet or even hear their cases.

    All I am doing is objecting to your assumption that all terminally ill people should be allowed to die and that no one should waste money on them because you assume that everyone will want to die without giving a fight even if that fight is hopeless. There is no one size fits all care for the terminally ill. Each individual case has its own dynamics and your generalizations are of no help to any of those people. I agree that there are cases where the time to let go is appropriate and I never said otherwise.

    You seem to be more worried about money than anything here, most likely you were not that way with your own loved ones. But from you have said it sounds like you dont apply that to other people.

    ANd dont even attempt to school me on COPD it is a genetic defect in my family I will most likely die the same way that my Mom did. Which was the same way that her Mom, sister and brother died. All of which I was witness too as well.

    ANd to the people asserting that dying people have no right to demand that other people pay for their care, I hope you end up the victim of your own assertions.
    Wow. Well, there's not much chance of my ending up with your witch's curse. My life and death is planned out. Tom, my significant other I've been with for 13 years, isn't my HCPOA. My cousin is. I've had long talks with her, and she is quite aware of the 3-day rule (as in 3minutes/3days/3weeks). I've made my wishes very clear to her, and I trust that she will abide by them with not a guilty bone in her body.

    I stand by what I said. COPD, in the long run, gets nothing but worse from day of diagnosis. Live long enough? One will die from it or its complications. That is NOT the same thing as the terminal illnesses I've referred to in my posts.

    Money was not a consideration in my late husband's case -- nor my father's. Both were on Medicare. My late husband elected not to take chemotherapy. They'd have been thrilled to administer it to him at an average cost of $50,000 to the system. And the hospital where my dad died? They would have also been thrilled to keep him in intensive care for six months until he finally gave up the ghost.

    These decisions should always be made for the good of the patient. No where did I say anything differently. Not for the good of the family. Not to assuage their conscience. Not to keep them from feeling guilty. Not because they can't bear to make hard decisions. For the good of the patient. Always. And keeping a terminal patient alive until their poor little bodies finally give up is often not in the best interest of the patient at all.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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