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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #131
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    Having work in the medical field have seen countless times of those hard decisions.

    You can see both sides of the argument. That is someone's family member and death is painful no matter what.

    But somehow one has to be realistic. Have seen them put a $60,000 medical equipment into someone who dies within a month.
    The good part of that is the operation is a billable item for the hospital and physician. The bad part is an ill body is forced through another operation. Even a young able body person going through a non-emergent operation is going to suffer some. Yes, the patient got to live a couple more weeks due to the operation maybe but was it worth it.

    There are just so many variables that nothing is black and white. There are only so many available medical dollars available. Do we spend them on someone who has not taken medical advice to help their own body? Do we spend them on someone in prison? It just goes on and on. The bottom line is the cost. We have all paid into Medicare but no individual has paid that much to cover the potential unlimited medical procedures we can offer them.
    I'm just really bothered by the fact that people are so resistant to this, that it will delay cost containment.
    That's going to hurt a lot of younger generations, who need funding for education, effective medicine programs, etc.

    To me, it makes 0 sense to devote most of our revenue on the elderly, rather than the young.
    I'm not trying to be crass or evil, but the government has to serve a reasonable utility function.
    Investing in younger people, makes much more sense, than people who have already lived their lives.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #132
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Everyone is going to be treated, it's just that they're going to do things that will ration based on likely outcomes.
    You're not going to get the most advanced care possible, it's going to be the most cost effective.


    That means if you're completely brain dead, you're not going to be left on life support for 2 years.
    It's not cost effective and not likely to bring a person back to functionality.

    I didn't make these programs and I've argued that they shouldn't exist, in the first place.
    With all that said, people are not going to accept ending these programs and costs have to be controlled.
    Welcome to the world of unrealistic entitlements.
    Every experience I or my family members have had with the healthcare system here in Germany has been absolutely stellar. We are doing something fundamentally wrong in the US that our medical system costs twice as much and we still have to whack people to save money.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  3. #133
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Every experience I or my family members have had with the healthcare system here in Germany has been absolutely stellar. We are doing something fundamentally wrong in the US that our medical system costs twice as much and we still have to whack people to save money.
    Blame the US gov and a lot of US citizens, they haven't been anything, but a banana peel in making pricing clear, in the US medical system.
    They suck.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #134
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The op is from an unreliable source, thus not worth taking at all seriously.
    That's a cop out. If you have evidence that the statements of fact, quotes from the Health Minister and the report, are not true then you ought to provide it rather than relying on bias against a particular publication.

    Meanwhile, the basic facts are confirmed in the NHS's own house organ:

    What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

    There are two issues here getting mixed up. One is whether the Liverpool Care Pathway is ever ethical. I'm of the opinion, and mainstream medical opinion in the US supports this, that patients have a right to refuse any and all care, including feeding and hydration, so I have no problem with the Care Pathway if a patient so chooses. The other issue is whether doctors have the right to impose this on people who have not been told and their families have not been told that the doctors are doing it. That's a violation of the same right to autonomy and unethical.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

  5. #135
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I suggest you do some reading on German healthcare. Look, if you haven't been personally involved with a terminally-ill dying loved one in Germany, you have no idea what's being done. And nobody anywhere is telling dying people to **** off.

    Here's a start to educate yourself: How German palliative care physicians act at the end of life
    From the article: The researchers found that physicians alleviated symptoms in 78 percent of patients and limited medical treatment with possible life shortening effects in 69 percent of cases. In 10 cases medication had been administered by the physician (9) or the patient (1) to deliberately hasten death.
    So they refused further treatment in some cases, and hastened death in 10 cases. I'm willing to bet most or all of those 10 cases the patient or family requested that. It wasn't a rogue doctor who decided killing would be best. I'm not suggesting we pay for expensive surgeries for terminal patients, I'm just suggesting we don't off them. Give them some meds and let them die on their own terms if they want to.

    But by all means, educate me on something you have likely never had any experience with whatsoever.

    My mother in law is sitting 5 feet from me right now. She used to work in a nursing home. When I asked her about killing terminal patients against their will she was disgusted and outraged. That does NOT happen here.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #136
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Yes, they do. If people want to hold on to their family members so bad, why do they warehouse them in nursing homes where care is marginal at its very BEST?? So they can visit them for an hour every two weeks and complain about the awful care they're getting? Are they there feeding them three times a day? Changing their diapers? Holding their hands when the pain is overwhelming? Then when they go into the hospital with pneumonia, these same people want them on life support, artificial feeding tubes, etc., etc., until their loved ones slowly wither away. Pick 'em up and take 'em the hell home. Feed them. Change them. No? I thought not. Throw them to the taxpayers and then call the rest of us heartless.
    People have the right to call you heartless if you think it's okay to decide the value of someone else's life or the value that their family members place on it. I'm wary of universal healthcare at this moment and place in time because I don't think it's right for you or anyone to be deciding the fate of someone else you don't know and have never met. Every situation is different, not all nursing homes are this horrible place where old people go to be stored away for the last few years of their life. I had a grandmother in a nursing home, we found a good one for her, she was happy their, we visited often, the caregivers there were amazing devoted people. We did what was right for her at that time and in her situation. Another grandmother (both greats) was very ill and suffering for years and she never set foot in a nursing home. Her family took care of her took her to the hospital when needed and took her back home afterwords and did this until the day she died. In both cases they were cared for loved and given the best option for them.

    So when I hear people talking down about nursing homes or extending care to people who are very ill it makes me wonder if they've really given all that much thought to each individual case. The right solution is not going to be the same for everyone. Same goes for 'pulling the plug' so to speak, if they're ready to go they should be allowed to.
    Last edited by Monserrat; 01-01-13 at 04:05 PM.
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  7. #137
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I suggest you do some reading on German healthcare. Look, if you haven't been personally involved with a terminally-ill dying loved one in Germany, you have no idea what's being done. And nobody anywhere is telling dying people to **** off.

    Here's a start to educate yourself: How German palliative care physicians act at the end of life
    Another fun quote from your article:
    In Germany, the Federal Court of Justice (Bundesgerichtshof) states that while limiting medical treatment and alleviating symptoms with possible life shortening consequences is lawful if it is the patient's will, it is illegal for physicians to administer substances which cause death even if the patient wants them to.
    You do read your own sources, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  8. #138
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Read the article.
    I did. Of course I think patients should have a say about their treatment. On the other hand, being fed with tubes is no life, and not many people would honestly choose to live like that. These are people with no hope of recovering any meaningful quality of life. Do you suggest that they should be kept alive indefinitely despite the bleak chance of recovery? Also, this sort of situation always arises with managed healthcare. You get what you pay for.

  9. #139
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Well, there are a huge amount of people that won't do that.
    So the government is going to put a ceiling on end of life care.
    Is this a prediction or are you speaking of something in the PPACA?

    A lot of people get disgusted by this though, but how much money should the government pay to extend one life, by one year?
    $10k, $100k, $1mil, $1bil?
    For you maybe $10k. For me a $billion might not be enough.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    First you kill unborn babies, then partial birth babies,then old people, then retarded people then Jews and gypsies.

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