60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

By FreedomFromAll: Not letting people suffer is completely logical on all levels.

Click to expand...

Quoted for truth and for showing sympathy for other still-living human beings.

MaggieD said:

Nobody is going to turn away cancer patients who want what they believe is curative treatment for their terminal disease. That does not mean that society has to foot that bill. It's horrible medicine. Terrible treatment of patients. And society cannot afford it.



I'm all for palliative medicine. You notice who isn't in the mix of experts, do you not? The patient and his family.


[/LIST]

I don't think anyone is arguing against palliative care here.

Click to expand...

You ARE aware that there are cases when doctors tell a patient that he/she cannot survive, and they beat the odds and DO survive. A doctor's prognosis is NOT always correct and all-knowing, but a guesstimate a LOT of the times.

I don't mind paying for other people's healthcare who can't afford it themselves. THAT is a good use of money IMO.

FreedomFromAll said:

You are generalizing a subject that can only be addressed on a case by case level.

Money spent on terminally ill people does not come from money earmarked for education, that is not how it works.

Click to expand...

That was only an example. You completely missed the point I was making. Let me try again: If there is not funding for expensive medical care for terminally ill people, should we take it from other sources (namely from those who can contribute something back to society at a later point)?

FreedomFromAll said:

The money simple does not exist for the other subject, what you said makes no sense, since money must be properly appropriated etc, there is a process earmarks money for certain things and you cannot legally use it for anything else.



Not letting people suffer is completely logical on all levels.

Click to expand...

Give them some morphine and let them die peacefully. You're the one you wants to prolong their suffering- not me.

FreedomFromAll said:

Ok good then perhaps you could save us all a little money and kill yourself now?

Click to expand...

What was the point of this hateful insult?

FreedomFromAll said:

The mistake that you are making is that it can cost up to $10,000 a day to stay in a SCU/ECU. That does not mean that it costs that much for everyone all the time.

Click to expand...

Of course the cost varies from patient to patient. That was an average cost.

FreedomFromAll said:

Medicare is a government ran insurance company. Medicare makes as much sense as private insurance companies. Which is none. People seem to like to blame the hospitals the doctors and even the patients for whats wrong with medical care in the US but most of the (not always though) they ignore insurance companies. The problem is that the system of using insurance companies in healthcare is really what is called privatized socialism. The Socialistic principles are the same and they do not work in the private sector any better than they work in the public sector. Of course those promoting socialism will tout countries with socialized medical care as they are medical utopias but they lack in many aspects just like privately owned insurance companies do. The only real difference is that in the socialized public version generally more people get ****ty coverage and they cut out the profits of private insurance companies. It is a half ass solution that really is only partially better than the current system in the US. There is a huge amount of room for improvement in those nation with socialized medical care.

If you ask me what I think the solution is, I will tell you that private insurance and government paid medical care both suck. If I had the solution I would make my own thread or start a movement to get it going. But I am only one individual and there are many minds that could figure this out if they were not stagnant minds locked in the battle over two screwed up systems. Because to those people it isnt really about improving the healthcare system its about promoting their ideologies. The healthcare issue is yet just another tool of propaganda for them.

Click to expand...

This is a topic for another thread.

ChrisL said:

You ARE aware that there are cases when doctors tell a patient that he/she cannot survive, and they beat the odds and DO survive. A doctor's prognosis is NOT always correct and all-knowing, but a guesstimate a LOT of the times.

I don't mind paying for other people's healthcare who can't afford it themselves. THAT is a good use of money IMO.

Click to expand...

Then write a check. Let's see how far that money goes. $50 billion a year and counting...

Evenstar said:

Then write a check. Let's see how far that money goes. $50 billion a year and counting...

Click to expand...

I already do. I donate to the Cancer Fund every year.

ChrisL said:

I don't mind paying for other people's healthcare who can't afford it themselves. THAT is a good use of money IMO.

Click to expand...

You will mind when your Medicare tax goes from its current 1.45% to 5%.

MaggieD said:

You will mind when your Medicare tax goes from its current 1.45% to 5%.

Click to expand...

There would be no need to do that if our government knew how to manage money. :shrug:

MaggieD said:

Nobody is going to turn away cancer patients who want what they believe is curative treatment for their terminal disease. That does not mean that society has to foot that bill. It's horrible medicine. Terrible treatment of patients. And society cannot afford it.

......

Click to expand...

Cancer does not always equate a death sentence. Some people go into remission and it never comes back. Hell I had thyroid cancer myself yet I am still alive. Its been 12 years since they removed my thyroid and a few months ago they confirmed that I have no thyroid cells in my body (the only that I would is if I had a cancerous tumor, **** I dont even like talking about that...) But not all cancer is the same. I was lucky in the sense that mine was operable. The doctors that I talked to all agreed that if the tumor had made it past the stage it was in I would be dead years ago now. Because I had the worst possible type of thyroid cancer that one could have. And the only that it was caught in time was a freak accident of going to the right doctor that had a clue. I had a infected saliva gland an extremely rare case and the doctor just happened to see the possible tumor in my thyroid at the edge of the picture. Hooray for chance!

But I agree with you that Radiation and chemo are not good ways of doing anything and to say that those so called treatments (IMHO they are not treatments they are what they were designed as a method to kill tissue indiscriminately, they are poison) are lame is an understatement of mega proportions.


You should read what you just wrote though you made it sound like you are asserting no treatment for anyone with cancer.

Manc Skipper said:

We're discussing a British NHS clinical management of a terminal patient's final hours. (at least that's whats at the root of these American paranoid fantasies) How does that overlap with the actions or not of the US government?

Click to expand...

I'm seeing the same things that are happening there are happening here.

FreedomFromAll said:

You should read what you just wrote though you made it sound like you are asserting no treatment for anyone with cancer.

Click to expand...

I'm a breast and bladder cancer survivor, Freedom. I would hardly assert no treatment for anyone with cancer. I cried like a little baby when I took my chemotherapy treatments three years ago...like a little kid...knowing I was willingly injecting poison into my body "for its own good." It was quite traumatic.

PeteEU said:

The Daily Telegraph is not part of Rupert Murdoch's empire. It is owned by the Barclay brothers.. not related to the bank.

The Daily Telegraph is however a conservative leaning paper which means it and its readers are pretty much against the NHS which explains its stories and attitude towards the NHS.

Click to expand...

Would you believe it if the NHS itself confirmed the story?

What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

Facts are facts whether Murdoch or some liberal rag tells them. What a cheap, lazy cop out to dismiss a story just because it appears in a paper with an editorial slant you don't like.

Evenstar said:

That was only an example. You completely missed the point I was making. Let me try again: If there is not funding for expensive medical care for terminally ill people, should we take it from other sources (namely from those who can contribute something back to society at a later point)?

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as a citizen worth more than another citizen. What you propose is bigotry of an even worse type than by race. You would make a great Communist dictator though.

Give them some morphine and let them die peacefully. You're the one you wants to prolong their suffering- not me.

Click to expand...

Thanx for the completely false accusation because I never said anything like that.

What was the point of this hateful insult?

Click to expand...

Your own attitude is insulting you? You said that living people were costing us money that we should just kill them and save money. Why not start with yourself first since technically we are all dying and expensive to keep alive you would be doing everyone a great service by saving us money.

Of course the cost varies from patient to patient. That was an average cost.

Click to expand...

Well you said that point blankly it cost 10k a day for everyone now you are back pedaling.

This is a topic for another thread.

Click to expand...

Is that because you are trying to promote your ideology here and you wouldnt want to talk about how thats really what the subject is about in this thread? Seriously take a good look at all of those posts here you can easily pick which ideology each poster is trying to promote. Most everyone here is saying that their ideology will fix healthcare. So this really is not a debate about healthcare but a war between ideologies.

LowDown said:

Would you believe it if the NHS itself confirmed the story?

What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

Facts are facts whether Murdoch or some liberal rag tells them. What a cheap, lazy cop out to dismiss a story just because it appears in a paper with an editorial slant you don't like.

Click to expand...

So what is it that you think it "confirms"?


ps. (this is merely a rehash of a story both papers put out (and were slated for) last June.)

MaggieD said:

I'm a breast and bladder cancer survivor, Freedom. I would hardly assert no treatment for anyone with cancer. I cried like a little baby when I took my chemotherapy treatments three years ago...like a little kid...knowing I was willingly injecting poison into my body "for its own good." It was quite traumatic.

Click to expand...

I think that mostly we are just talking past each other. Which is why I was pointing that out. I dont think that you got across what you were trying to say and what did come out wasnt at all what you wanted. Lol which is what I seem to do most of the time here.

I agree that cancer treatment is traumatic though I feel like that word is not strong enough. IMHO the whole affair for me was ****ed up. I dont believe that I am cured, Im just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

FreedomFromAll said:

I think that mostly we are just talking past each other. Which is why I was pointing that out. I dont think that you got across what you were trying to say and what did come out wasnt at all what you wanted. Lol which is what I seem to do most of the time here.

I agree that cancer treatment is traumatic though I feel like that word is not strong enough. IMHO the whole affair for me was ****ed up. I dont believe that I am cured, Im just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Click to expand...

Same here. Ha! Not a day goes by that another new ache or pain doesn't remind me. My mom is a 30-year survivor. That's encouraging for both of us -- and all who've been diagnosed with this disease. Cheers!

LowDown said:

Would you believe it if the NHS itself confirmed the story?

What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

Facts are facts whether Murdoch or some liberal rag tells them. What a cheap, lazy cop out to dismiss a story just because it appears in a paper with an editorial slant you don't like.

Click to expand...

Dont get me wrong, I dont actually doubt the few actual facts that are on the table. Do doctors not tell relatives and family the whole story? Yes. Do doctors not do everything to save someone that is going to die anyways.. of course that is only humane. Do doctors actually help death along... officially nope, unofficially of course.

What I question is first the motivation of the publications.. which are actually well known, and secondly the "slant" and "twisting" of the facts in said publications. British newspapers are notorious in their ability to blow things out of proportions or slant things 180 degrees to meet a set political view or editorial stance.

In other words.. if the newspaper is against something, then all stories will be often slanted towards that regardless of the facts. So you could easily have two newspapers with the same story coming to totally different conclusions.. happens often.

That is why I am saying.. Daily Mail pft.. and The Telegraph .. Pft. Both have a history of hatred towards the NHS and have a history of taking isolated problems and blowing them up into a major country wide issue and demanding the heads of the NHS and pressing for privatization.

You have to remember that the Daily Mail is basically fascist. It is anti-European, xenophobic to borderline racist and supported Adolf Hitler and his movement in the Uk back in the day. To me it is amazing the newspaper was not shut down during WW2 after supporting the fascist movement.. but hey.

As for the Telegraph. Again very conservative leaning and that is because of its two owners.. billionaire twins who are recluses and well known supporters of the Tory party. Like it or not, the Tory party has a secret wish to make the UK health system into the American system, but knows that it cant be open about it, so it loves to find via its "friendly newspapers" issues in the NHS that can result in the changes that the Tory party wants.. more privatization. But they know that they cant be too open about it... it almost cost Maggie Thatcher.. well actually it pretty much did.. back in the day, and if they went out openly and said they wanted to get rid of the NHS and privatize it, then the Tories would become a very small party. Even in this government they went out openly and said "no cuts to care in the NHS" when in fact there has been massive cuts and it could very well cost them the next election if Labour runs on it.

So basically.. such stories in British newspapers have to be taken into context of the political stance of the newspaper and its history.

LowDown said:

Would you believe it if the NHS itself confirmed the story?

What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices

Facts are facts whether Murdoch or some liberal rag tells them. What a cheap, lazy cop out to dismiss a story just because it appears in a paper with an editorial slant you don't like.

Click to expand...

Did you read the article you posted? It doesn't support the claims of The Daily Telegraph or The Daily Mail.

"Anonymous doctors?" That seems to be a favorite tact by conservative rags. A fact would require the sources could be verified.

Wake said:

If this is true, it's a step in the right direction for valuing your pocketbook, but a step in the wrong direction for valuing human life.

Click to expand...

Stay away from light blue avatars, Wake.

ChrisL said:

You ARE aware that there are cases when doctors tell a patient that he/she cannot survive, and they beat the odds and DO survive. A doctor's prognosis is NOT always correct and all-knowing, but a guesstimate a LOT of the times.

Click to expand...

My great uncle was at death's door and not expected to live 3 months - almost put into hospice - due to cancer. He's now going on over a year and he's looking much stronger, healthier and better then he has in a long time.

buck said:

My great uncle was at death's door and not expected to live 3 months - almost put into hospice - due to cancer. He's now going on over a year and he's looking much stronger, healthier and better then he has in a long time.

Click to expand...

This is another reason why I oppose this. Human life should be given more value than money. I wonder if rich people under this program get the same treatment...

Wake said:

This is another reason why I oppose this. Human life should be given more value than money. I wonder if rich people under this program get the same treatment...

Click to expand...

Rich people probably have more options. If their insurance company won't pay for a particular treatment, they can decide to spend their own money for it. Most of the rest of us don't have that option. Of course, most treatments that insurance companies won't pay for are experimental at the very best. Some are downright quackery. Some treatments/tests (for cancer, in particular) fall between the cracks. A particular breast-cancer tumor test comes to mind. This test hasn't been sufficiently proven yet, although it's available. Many insurance companies won't pay for the test -- which costs about $5,200. Rich people? No problem, let's do it. Many of the rest of us couldn't afford it.

MaggieD said:

Rich people probably have more options. If their insurance company won't pay for a particular treatment, they can decide to spend their own money for it. Most of the rest of us don't have that option. Of course, most treatments that insurance companies won't pay for are experimental at the very best. Some are downright quackery. Some treatments/tests (for cancer, in particular) fall between the cracks. A particular breast-cancer tumor test comes to mind. This test hasn't been sufficiently proven yet, although it's available. Many insurance companies won't pay for the test -- which costs about $5,200. Rich people? No problem, let's do it. Many of the rest of us couldn't afford it.

Click to expand...

I hold no hope for these people in charge. The people in charge of making these decisions on our healthcare are typically rich, and like it or not they may not have our best interests at heart. I just realize that no matter the system the guys without money get screwed, and the best thing to do is be frugal, mind your health, and save up as much money as possible. It's not fair how the medicine you need is expensive enough to give you a heart-attack: that's irony at its finest. What a buncha shmucks!

MaggieD said:

Rich people probably have more options. If their insurance company won't pay for a particular treatment, they can decide to spend their own money for it. Most of the rest of us don't have that option. Of course, most treatments that insurance companies won't pay for are experimental at the very best. Some are downright quackery. Some treatments/tests (for cancer, in particular) fall between the cracks. A particular breast-cancer tumor test comes to mind. This test hasn't been sufficiently proven yet, although it's available. Many insurance companies won't pay for the test -- which costs about $5,200. Rich people? No problem, let's do it. Many of the rest of us couldn't afford it.

Click to expand...

A friend of mine had hepetitus. He is 60 and was dieing. A miracle drug came out at the 11th hour that saved his life. He went into debt for the rest of his life to pay for it; the alternative was much grimmer.

Being 60 y/o, I have my doubts whether the government would have spent the money to save his life, nor should they have the authority to make that decision, either way.

Manc Skipper said:

So what is it that you think it "confirms"?

Click to expand...

1. That an investigation into how the LCP is being administered has been launched.

2. That it is alleged that some patients are being put on the LCP without them or their families being told.

3. That it is alleged that hospitals are being rewarded for putting patients on the LCP.

4. That the Health Minister thinks that despite some problems the LCP is a tremendous advance in patient care, or words to that effect.