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Thread: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

  1. #111
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    The tax payers are going to have to pay if we want a universal healthcare system that is just, it's required in order to stave off abuses. If we cannot commit to that or are just unwilling than a universal state run health care system will never work.

    Those tax dollars would be for the living, not the dead, the family is still alive, it would be for them.
    No, universal health care does not work, when it provides unlimited medical care.
    That's why nearly all systems of UHC have limits, otherwise it would bankrupt the state.

    A family holding on to a dead family member, through artificial means, is just delaying reality.
    You don't have a right to that.

    Most people, in the know about Medicare costs, fully recognize, that this is going to happen and soon.
    Why? because we can't afford it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Please give us a link showing what, in regards to "death panels" was removed from the healthcare bill. You can't. Because it was never there.
    Section 1233 of Obamacare, which deals with mandatory end of life planning, was removed from the bill.

    This part of the text makes it obvious that a gray area has been created for government bureaucrats to be given authority to order some patients to be deprived of life saving healthcare intervention.

    "(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--

    "(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;

    "(ii) the individual's desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;

    "(iii) the use of antibiotics; and

    "(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration."


    Health Care Bill Page 425 - The Truth
    There's the text and it was removed from the bill. If it was really the, "big lie", why was it so quickly removed? The Dems didn't even put up a fight, before removing it. Why?
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  3. #113
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    She was basically brain dead or very very near to it. My point was that she was diagnosed terminally ill in 1998 while her quality of life wasnt from that point getting any better to her her life was a valuable enough for her (and me, my brother etc) to take the effort to continue living. You made a generalization asserting that terminal ill people shouldnt try to stay alive because you think that it is not worth the money. You need to realize terminal does not always mean that the patient is going to die in a couple days or even a couple months and you have no right to decide whether their quality of life is worth living in. The reason is because you are not that individual nor are you the family of that individual. What I went through and what you went through was unique to the situation at hand. In my case it did cost medicare groups of money to keep her alive for years but she paid plenty into medicare throughout her life, but most of all she was a human being. Have some damn compassion instead of minding a checkbook that is not yours. I personally spent thousands of my own money and countless time to help her have the best life that she could in her condition. I have no regrets I would do it just the same given a second chance.

    So who are you to say what costs too much when it comes to another individuals life?
    And who are you to judge me? The doctors did not tell your mother she was terminally ill in 1998. That may be what you heard, but that's not what they said. COPD is a progressively and debilitating fatal illness. That is a very different thing from terminal brain cancer or terminal lung cancer. I'd suggest you understand that other people besides yourself have compassion for people. And sometimes? The most compassionate thing we can do??? Is to let them go. If you don't get that? That's on you.

    Stop judging others with a broken yardstick.
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  4. #114
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Those costs are ballooning because of baby boomers.
    Medicare spending is going to be reduced, that is just one part of the over all reduction in spending and limiting of benefits, that will eventually happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The point is that in cases such as my father's, someone NEEDS to make these decisions, and there are many people in our society who cannot make them, based in reality. The reality is, nobody has a right to unlimited care on the taxpayer's dime. You know that I am a reality-based individual, who takes individual responsibility seriously. If a person wants unlimited care, he should be the one to pay for it- not the collective taxpayer. We simply can't afford to do it, and at some point, limits must be made, based on necessity.
    These people spent their entire working lives paying into medicaid, the world's largest ponsi scheme, and when it comes time to cash that out, "Sorry, our government has horrifically mismanaged that money, so your life is now too expensive."
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  5. #115
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    Monserrat's Avatar
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No, universal health care does not work, when it provides unlimited medical care.
    That's why nearly all systems of UHC have limits, otherwise it would bankrupt the state.

    A family holding on to a dead family member, through artificial means, is just delaying reality.
    You don't have a right to that.

    Most people, in the know about Medicare costs, fully recognize, that this is going to happen and soon.
    Why? because we can't afford it.
    You absolutely have a right to hold onto you family member if they aren't really 'dead'. No one has a right to tell you that your loved one has to die because they don't want to spend tax payers money on sustaining life.

    Yeah I'm not sure universal healthcare will work either, it's a step towards a Utopian society which is why people want it, it's ideal but it's not feasible in my opinion not at this time.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

  6. #116
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    These people spent their entire working lives paying into medicaid, the world's largest ponsi scheme, and when it comes time to cash that out, "Sorry, our government has horrifically mismanaged that money, so your life is now too expensive."
    You get the gist of it bro.
    But honestly, most of those people receive far more in benefits, than they ever paid in.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #117
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by Monserrat View Post
    You absolutely have a right to hold onto you family member if they aren't really 'dead'. No one has a right to tell you that your loved one has to die because they don't want to spend tax payers money on sustaining life.

    Yeah I'm not sure universal healthcare will work either, it's a step towards a Utopian society which is why people want it, it's ideal but it's not feasible in my opinion not at this time.
    The government has the right, to not pay for any of it.
    Sustaining life is debatable.

    If a person is brain dead, keeping them on life support is sustaining an empty vessel.
    It's like leaving a car running, with no driver.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #118
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Section 1233 of Obamacare, which deals with mandatory end of life planning, was removed from the bill.

    This part of the text makes it obvious that a gray area has been created for government bureaucrats to be given authority to order some patients to be deprived of life saving healthcare intervention.

    There's the text and it was removed from the bill. If it was really the, "big lie", why was it so quickly removed? The Dems didn't even put up a fight, before removing it. Why?
    Please give me a link that shows Section 1233 was removed from the final legislation. Your link doesn't show that and, in fact, refutes your so-called death panels. I thought this ridiculous argument had gone up in the smoke it deserved. Apparently not with everyone.

    Providing a fee schedule for doctors to discuss end-of-life planning with their patients is hardly a death panel. WTH is wrong with people?
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  9. #119
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    No one should be deprived the option of life saving healthcare. If they chose to fight knowing they will not feel well then that's their choice to make, not the governments.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  10. #120
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    Re: 60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    No one should be deprived the option of life saving healthcare. If they chose to fight knowing they will not feel well then that's their choice to make, not the governments.
    Sure, as long as they pay for it, without using Medicare.
    If you disagree, how much should Medicare pay to sustain one life for one year.

    Is that number infinity dollars?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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