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Thread: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the only purpose for jacking up taxes on the "very rich" is to pander to class envy. You are right it has no realistic benefits
    No, the reason to do it is to build up the middle class, which is essential for a healthy economy in the 1st world. As I have pointed out numerous times, as you lower the top marginal rate, the wealth flows to the very wealthy. That is not a healthy trend... not the last time the wealth skewed the way it does now was 1929.[

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickieboy View Post
    I believe we are both suffering from clarity issues. My analogy was not meant to be literal as evidenced by my usage of ‘Say’. I was merely using a ‘back of an envelope’ calculation using randomly accurate generous taxation (all) numbers to suggest the ‘volume’ of money from an ‘improving economy’ is way insufficient to address the deficit. You suggest ‘varies radically’ but in fact the revenue/GDP number tracks pretty steadily between 15-20% but GDP growth figures vary MUCH wider high to low. Play with the numbers and see what I mean. Adjust the GDP growth AND the taxation percentage, you’ll see…ie. $16t/ 10% growth/20%tax = $320b…still lower revenue than the average deficits of the 2000’s.
    "Steadily between 15 and 20%" is a HUGE variance. 5% of GDP is $800B... almost the entire deficit. Note however that the 15-20% of GDP includes payroll taxes (which is not suppose count in this discussion). The actual income revenue, which are most effected by GDP change, have varied over the past 12 years from 12.3% of GDP in 2000 (when, BTW, the budget was essentially balanced) to 8.5% currently.

    Historical Source of Revenue as Share of GDP

    Again, I beg to differ. Tax revenues from an improved economy can substantially erase the deficit. Consider the 4% difference between income tax revenue to GDP in 2000 to today is about $640B. This alone takes care of more than 1/2 the deficit.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 01-01-13 at 07:25 PM.

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Again, I beg to differ. Tax revenues from an improved economy can substantially erase the deficit. Consider the 4% difference between income tax revenue to GDP in 2000 to today is about $640B. This alone takes care of more than 1/2 the deficit.
    Which kind of disregards that debt service alone (i.e. interest payments) is expected to exceed military spending by around 2020 and exceed a trillion dollars a year.

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    "Steadily between 15 and 20%" is a HUGE variance. 5% of GDP is $800B... almost the entire deficit.
    Yes, it is but based on the graph you furnished previously the percentages do not jump wildly to garner the ‘5% of GDP is $800B’ you claim.
    Note however that the 15-20% of GDP includes payroll taxes (which is not suppose count in this discussion).
    Why not? I have not restricted our discussion to income taxes but rather have been discussing total revenue. Further payroll taxes have been part of AND USED as revenue for use for some time now…which I disagree with.

    The actual income revenue, which are most effected by GDP change, have varied over the past 12 years from 12.3% of GDP in 2000 (when, BTW, the budget was essentially balanced) to 8.5% currently.
    So corporate taxes and PR taxes are not thusly affected by GDP change? Again, my argument is to total revenue not some specific portion. There are way too many variables to pick any one source (Income, excise, corporate, etc.) to identify the GDP change and quantify the magnitude of the specific revenue increase.

    Again, I beg to differ. Tax revenues from an improved economy can substantially erase the deficit. Consider the 4% difference between income tax revenue to GDP in 2000 to today is about $640B. This alone takes care of more than 1/2 the deficit.
    So you believe that the income from income tax revenues can jump 4% in one year? Remember my crude calculation is based on one year. Yes, the 4% would equate to $640b but you fail to realize that over the 12 years this percentage changed the SPENDING increased also…from your previous chart from 2000 spending of 1.789t to 3.729t in 2012(est.), a 108% increase…thus not addressing the deficit at all!
    "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure" - 2006 Senator Obama...leadership failure indeed!

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    As I have already said the deal just raises taxes for those earning over $450 thousand and increases spending.
    CBO: 'Fiscal cliff' deal carries $4 trillion price tag over next decade - The Hill's On The Money

    Precisely....the Left lied about the spending cuts.
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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Well, we are officially over the fiscal cliff. A deal was not reached. A picture is worth a thousand words:

    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Looks like Boehner has found a way out. He is going to let the Tea Party amend the Senate bill, which will then become dead on arrival in the Senate. At that point, Boehner is going to send the original unamended Senate bill to the House floor for an up or down vote. There are enough votes for easy passage. Boehner wins, the Tea Party loses, and Boehner may very well lose his speakership because of it. Kudos to Boehner for putting country ahead of party.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    They just announced they are going to vote in the house by 2 am this morning on the unamended Senate bill.
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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Looks like Boehner has found a way out. He is going to let the Tea Party amend the Senate bill, which will then become dead on arrival in the Senate. At that point, Boehner is going to send the original unamended Senate bill to the House floor for an up or down vote. There are enough votes for easy passage. Boehner wins, the Tea Party loses, and Boehner may very well lose his speakership because of it. Kudos to Boehner for putting country ahead of party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They just announced they are going to vote in the house by 2 am this morning on the unamended Senate bill.
    Hmmmm....interesting political ploy especially considering that it's mainly Tea Partiers who don't like the fiscal cliff deal. Let them show still further just how dysfunction this faction truly is.

    Don't get me wrong, I fully understand their position with this deal but IMO if the issue truly is "not enough spending is in the deal (if any)" then you'd think at the very least they'd be arguing to put some of the sequesters back in the final bill. Instead, they're arguing over entitlement reform/spending. Here's a suggest to the Tea Party faithful: Get a commitment from House Dems, the President and Spkr Boehner to do entitlement and tax reform in the near future and you ultimately get your wish on reducing federal spending.

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    Re: Obama, Republicans reach deal on fiscal cliff; Senate vote expected tonight

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They just announced they are going to vote in the house by 2 am this morning on the unamended Senate bill.
    Their yapping it up on c-span now.

    Live Video - C-SPAN | C-SPAN
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