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Thread: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

  1. #41
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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    "Democracy is like an old ugly whore who must drop her drawers faster and faster
    for less and less."

    Shame on those fret about minutia while actually thinking our clapped-out system
    can be repaired. Hopefully, economic and social stresses with collapse this farce
    of government. Beyond repair, strip it down and build something better.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Wow! I looked at this thread expecting to totally disagree with Oliver Stone, but he is actually making a lot of sense.

    Oliver Stone: I think under the disguise of sheep’s clothing he has been a wolf. That because of the nightmare of the Bush presidency that preceded him, people forgave him a lot. He was a great hope for change. The color of his skin, the upbringing, the internationalism, the globalism, seemed all evident. And he is an intelligent man. He has taken all the Bush changes he basically put them into the establishment, he has codified them. That is what is sad. So we are going into the second administration that is living outside the law and does not respect the law and foundations of our system and he is a constitutional lawyer, you know. Without the law, it is the law of the jungle. Nuremburg existed for a reason and there was a reason to have trials, there is a reason for due process – ‘habeas corpus’ as they call it in the United States.
    The bush policies continue unchanged, even amplified, the government has no respect for due process or the rule of law, the Constitution is increasingly being shoved under the table, and individual rights are being trampled.

    Orwellian. Maybe not to the degree of the Big Brother society, but getting closer all the time.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    The point is that you're historically ignorant of the "established" meaning of 'liberalism' as used in the context of 'classical liberalism'. The actual classical liberals - Gladstone, say, who built the workhouses for the poor out of the general budget, or Asquith - had no problem with social spending. They simply wanted to keep it within the means available to the government, and to do it while raising as little new revenue as possible.

    They were not libertarians. They had few ideological points of contact with modern libertarianism. And for modern libertarians to call themselves the whole-hog inheritors of classical liberalism is to disgrace the men who were themselves classical liberals.

    I admire Gladstone, and consider myself very influenced by the man intellectually. But I want absolutely not a thing to do with American-style Hayekians or Austrians.



    Nonsense. 'Conservationism' and 'conservatism' have the same root word. Yet most conservationists and most conservatives deplore each other.
    You see you're just proving my point. You continue to use individuals (er collectivists) who called themselves liberals but were NOT liberal.

    You may as well use Nancy Pelosi as an example next.

    One cannot be a liberal and advocate for larger government, just like one cannot be an anarchist and advocate for a leader.

    Show me an "authoritarian liberal" and I'll eat my hat because both those concepts contradict one another.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    You see you're just proving my point. You continue to use individuals (er collectivists) who called themselves liberals but were NOT liberal.

    You may as well use Nancy Pelosi as an example next.

    One cannot be a liberal and advocate for larger government, just like one cannot be an anarchist and advocate for a leader.
    Your problem is that you're taking the word of non-liberals, who lived decades (or even centuries) after the hayday of political liberalism in a classical sense, at face value.

    The men who lived and breathed 'classical liberalism' defined what classical liberalism actually was. And it was, indeed, concerned with over taxation and with free-markets. But it was also concerned with social welfare and the use of the government to improve the lives of the lower classes. The men who formed the Liberal Party and brought it into its period of political ascendancy in the last two-quarters of the 19th century did not regard these two ideals as at loggerheads. Their opposition to over-taxation came out of a concern for the pocketbooks of the lower classes.

    They were not libertarians. And for Hayek to claim they were, and to claim himself a direct descendant of Gladstone, is intellectual and historical heresy.

    But you would know this, if you read a biography of Gladstone or Asquith or a history of British politics in the 19th century and put down The Road to Serfdom.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Your problem is that you're taking the word of non-liberals, who lived decades (or even centuries) after the hayday of political liberalism in a classical sense, at face value.

    The men who lived and breathed 'classical liberalism' defined what classical liberalism actually was. And it was, indeed, concerned with over taxation and with free-markets. But it was also concerned with social welfare and the use of the government to improve the lives of the lower classes. The men who formed the Liberal Party and brought it into its period of political ascendancy in the last two-quarters of the 19th century did not regard these two ideals as at loggerheads. Their opposition to over-taxation came out of a concern for the pocketbooks of the lower classes.

    They were not libertarians. And for Hayek to claim they were, and to claim himself a direct descendant of Gladstone, is intellectual and historical heresy.

    But you would know this, if you read a biography of Gladstone or Asquith or a history of British politics in the 19th century and put down The Road to Serfdom.
    You do realize you can't have it both ways? that a nanny state and individual liberty are impossible?

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    You do realize you can't have it both ways? that a nanny state and individual liberty are impossible?
    You do realize that the men who are today called 'classical liberals' were not ideologues, and the abstract contradiction between 'liberty' and 'security' (which, ultimately, is a false dichotomy anyway) mattered to them not an iota when formulating concrete policy plans, right?
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    You do realize that the men who are today called 'classical liberals' were not ideologues, and the abstract contradiction between 'liberty' and 'security' (which, ultimately, is a false dichotomy anyway) mattered to them not an iota when formulating concrete policy plans, right?

    The line since then has moved, and as for European thoughts on how the US should run itself has long since been determined...I think 1776 was the dateline.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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