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Thread: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    First, define "torture", second Congress makes those decisions and so does the military.
    What constitutes torture is not a decision made by anybody, least of all Congress. Torture is defined according to a legal principle called "jus cogens," compelling law, which transcends national sovereignty. Simply put, no sovereign government can redefine or circumscribe what torture is. Waterboarding is torture, even if the United States government illegitimately claims it isn't.

    Not to mention torture is a relative term. Progressives act like being offended is torture. I just laugh it off when people try to offend me - it's amusing to me.
    No, it isn't. At least not legally. And legally is the only usage of the word torture that I'm concerned with. I don't care about your personal opinions about torture (although your views are kind of monstrous).

    I suppose my point is that it would be ignorant to use Bush as a goat when multiple people from both political parties played a role in what you deem to be "torture."
    No, you are clearly the ignorant one here.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The Magna Carta is from 1215. The document certainly did birth classical liberal ideas - at least etched them in stone. Our Bill of Rights and Constitution in general are based on those classical liberal ideas.
    I'm very well aware of what the Magna Carta is. What I'm also aware of is that the Magna Carta was nothing more than a codification of the "Rights of the Englishman" that had been simply assumed as a matter of law before the Norman invasion. The Magna Carta existed for no other reason than to restore what had been previously taken as a matter of course. It granted no new liberties and expanded no rights or privileges. It was not a liberal document.

    BTW, back in 1215 it was the conservatives who supported Monarchies and Theocracies, the liberals (mostly peasants) opposed Monarchies and Theocracies..
    This is hilariously historically inaccurate, also. You would later have peasant groups like the Levellers and Diggers (proto-communist, mind) and theocratic supporters of Cromwell who opposed the monarchy in its then-current form. Much more often the peasantry was the bastion of support for the Crown and the nobility, because they were seen as the main source of protection for the small peasantry from looters and crop thieves. Most organized opposition to the nobility came much later, and it came out of the burgeoning middle-classes.

    God, American 'libertarianism' has completely falsified world history to fit into a simplistic concept that bears no relation to reality.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    What constitutes torture is not a decision made by anybody, least of all Congress. Torture is defined according to a legal principle called "jus cogens," compelling law, which transcends national sovereignty. Simply put, no sovereign government can redefine or circumscribe what torture is. Waterboarding is torture, even if the United States government illegitimately claims it isn't.



    No, it isn't. At least not legally. And legally is the only usage of the word torture that I'm concerned with. I don't care about your personal opinions about torture (although your views are kind of monstrous).



    No, you are clearly the ignorant one here.
    It doesn't matter. Hell you're torturing me right now - maybe you're the war criminal

    No one can define torture because we all have different thresholds - torture is relative to the individual.

    Also, like I said - you cant make a goat out of George Bush because he wasn't the only one making decisions. Presidents aren't dictators (despite the fact progressives want them to be). So if you want to place blame then blame everyone 537 people in total.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    It doesn't matter. Hell you're torturing me right now - maybe you're the war criminal
    Well, no, I'm not. What is or is not torture is an objective matter, not a subjective one.

    No one can define torture because we all have different thresholds - torture is relative to the individual.
    You can keep saying this bull**** but it won't make it true.

    Also, like I said - you cant make a goat out of George Bush because he wasn't the only one making decisions. Presidents aren't dictators (despite the fact progressives want them to be). So if you want to place blame then blame everyone 537 people in total.
    George Bush may not be the only one who is culpable but he is personally culpable as well. He also confessed. That should be the end of the matter, if there were any justice in the world it would be. Unfortunately, justice often takes a back seat to pragmatic concerns. And when there are so many people like you in the world-- monster who don't care if their government tortures-- then torture will continue to persist. It is our nation's shame. Shame on you for contributing to it.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    There is no difference between a liberal and a libertarian.

    Liberals aren't "liberal" they're authoritarian progressives. The word liberal is consistently misused. One may as well call a hat a bowl or a towel a napkin.
    Collectivist Authoritarians actually

    Fascism is alive and well in the United States. They all vote Democrat.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    I'm very well aware of what the Magna Carta is. What I'm also aware of is that the Magna Carta was nothing more than a codification of the "Rights of the Englishman" that had been simply assumed as a matter of law before the Norman invasion. The Magna Carta existed for no other reason than to restore what had been previously taken as a matter of course. It granted no new liberties and expanded no rights or privileges. It was not a liberal document.



    This is hilariously historically inaccurate, also. You would later have peasant groups like the Levellers and Diggers (proto-communist, mind) and theocratic supporters of Cromwell who opposed the monarchy in its then-current form. Much more often the peasantry was the bastion of support for the Crown and the nobility, because they were seen as the main source of protection for the small peasantry from looters and crop thieves. Most organized opposition to the nobility came much later, and it came out of the burgeoning middle-classes.

    God, American 'libertarianism' has completely falsified world history to fit into a simplistic concept that bears no relation to reality.
    WOW, how can you sit here and claim the Magna Carta was not a liberal document?? notice the routine use of the word 'liberty" in the wiki article?

    Weather the prerequisite was set for liberty before the document was passed doesn't change the fact the document was liberal based. Hell I even asserted liberal ideas are much older than the Magna Carta and one could argue the Bible is a "liberal document" (but I wouldn't make that argument)...

    The point I'm trying to make is that liberal means "liberty" and conservative means to "conserve" and libertarian means "liberty."

    One can be a conservative - it just depends on what is being conserved. One can be a libertarian, however libertarian is a generic term for one who embraces liberty and limited government or no government at all - and classical liberalism falls into that category.

    Anyone who believes in big government is NOT a liberal, they're fascist authoritarians..

    People can rewrite history all they like and redefine words all they like because it makes them feel better, however that doesn't make these pursuits honest or correct.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Collectivist Authoritarians actually

    Fascism is alive and well in the United States. They all vote Democrat.
    I agree they're collectivists to boot, but they're only collectivists because they're brainwashed with authoritarian ideas (in some cases totalitarian). Unions are a fantastic example of this.

    Authoritarian, fascism and collectivism go hand-in-hand.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    WOW, how can you sit here and claim the Magna Carta was not a liberal document?? notice the routine use of the word 'liberty" in the wiki article?
    The German National Socialist Workers’ Party is not a party exclusively for labourers; it stands for the interests of every decent and honest enterprise. It is a liberal and strictly folkish Party.
    - The 25 Points

    Anybody can use the terms "liberal" and "liberty" because they sound good. The Magna Carta does guarantee some liberties that had last been seen during the reign of Edward the Confessor and which had been promised, but not kept, by Henry I. The Magna Carta is, nevertheless, not a liberal document.

    Anyone who believes in big government is NOT a liberal, they're fascist authoritarians..
    Again, tell it to Asquith.

    The 1909 People's Budget was a product of then British Prime Minister H. H. Asquith's Liberal government, introducing many unprecedented taxes on the wealthy and radical social welfare programmes to Britain's political life. It was championed by Chancellor of the Exchequer David Lloyd George and his strong ally Winston Churchill, who was then President of the Board of Trade; the duo was called the "Terrible Twins" by contemporaries.[1]
    Last edited by Einzige; 12-30-12 at 03:38 PM.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    - The 25 Points

    Anybody can use the terms "liberal" and "liberty" because they sound good. The Magna Carta does guarantee some liberties that had last been seen during the reign of Edward the Confessor and which had been promised, but not kept, by William II. The Magna Carta is, nevertheless, not a liberal document.



    Again, tell it to Asquith.
    You act like societies don't turn hypocritical in a quick second.

    Just because a society mocks a definition of a word or idea doesn't mean the definition changes with society.

    No one can redefine what was already established.

    "Liberal" is nothing more than a slogan that is continually misused to the point that it has no meaning whatsoever. One may as well call a car a bike.

    Besides, it shouldn't be too difficult to see that libertarian and liberal have the same root word and meaning attached which is liberty. Neither have different meanings just different thresholds under the same concept.

    Are you familiar with Whole Language?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_language

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Just because a society mocks a definition of a word or idea doesn't mean the definition changes with society.

    No one can redefine what was already established.
    The point is that you're historically ignorant of the "established" meaning of 'liberalism' as used in the context of 'classical liberalism'. The actual classical liberals - Gladstone, say, who built the workhouses for the poor out of the general budget, or Asquith - had no problem with social spending. They simply wanted to keep it within the means available to the government, and to do it while raising as little new revenue as possible.

    They were not libertarians. They had few ideological points of contact with modern libertarianism. And for modern libertarians to call themselves the whole-hog inheritors of classical liberalism is to disgrace the men who were themselves classical liberals.

    I admire Gladstone, and consider myself very influenced by the man intellectually. But I want absolutely not a thing to do with American-style Hayekians or Austrians.

    Besides, it shouldn't be too difficult to see that libertarian and liberal have the same root word and meaning attached which is liberty. Neither have different meanings just different thresholds under the same concept.
    Nonsense. 'Conservationism' and 'conservatism' have the same root word. Yet most conservationists and most conservatives deplore each other.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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