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Thread: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I know im just saying when people think of Ron Paul they dont think liberal, they think libertarian.
    There is no difference between a liberal and a libertarian.

    Liberals aren't "liberal" they're authoritarian progressives. The word liberal is consistently misused. One may as well call a hat a bowl or a towel a napkin.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    There is no difference between a liberal and a libertarian.

    Liberals aren't "liberal" they're authoritarian progressives. The word liberal is consistently misused. One may as well call a hat a bowl or a towel a napkin.
    There's no relationship between 'classical liberalism' and 'libertarianism', and modern attempts to draw links between the two are basically ignorant of the history of classical liberalism.

    'Liberalism' itself wasn't a concept in the same sense that modern political ideologies are. Nobody ever called themselves 'classical liberals', and those who today are most frequently associated with 'classical liberalism' were not remotely like modern libertarians.

    Prime Minister Gladstone, who is undoubtedly the least controversial 'classical liberal' in the history of the Anglosphere, was basically hostile to the values libertarianism today promotes.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    If Bush is a "war criminal" then so is every member of Congress who voted to authorize spending on these wars.
    No, Bush is a war criminal because he authorized torture and extraordinary rendition to countries that torture.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    There's no relationship between 'classical liberalism' and 'libertarianism', and modern attempts to draw links between the two are basically ignorant of the history of classical liberalism.

    'Liberalism' itself wasn't a concept in the same sense that modern political ideologies are. Nobody ever called themselves 'classical liberals', and those who today are most frequently associated with 'classical liberalism' were not remotely like modern libertarians.

    Prime Minister Gladstone, who is undoubtedly the least controversial 'classical liberal' in the history of the Anglosphere, was basically hostile to the values libertarianism today promotes.
    You ever hear of the Magna Carta?

    The notion that libertarians have some sort of common belief structure is wrong... Classical liberalism falls under libertarian, however so does anarchy (which is an impossible philosophy). Classical liberalism is just a specific idea where one would fall on the political spectrum.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    In this case, you're trying to fit a frog and a toad into the same pot.
    Me, nah, I prefer chicken.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    You ever hear of the Magna Carta?
    The Magna Carta was devised centuries before anyone ever called themselves a 'liberal' in any sense, and was considered a conservative document in that it was taken to simply reiterate the commonly-assumed rights of the Englishman that had existed before the Norman Invasion. It was not, at all, taken to be 'liberal' even by the standards of the day.

    The notion that libertarians have some sort of common belief structure is wrong... Classical liberalism falls under libertarian, however so does anarchy (which is an impossible philosophy). Classical liberalism is just a specific idea where one would fall on the political spectrum.
    'Classical liberalism' is not libertarian, in any real sense. Yes, the Liberal Party, under Gladstone and others, favored low taxes and less public spending. They also favored channeling what spending there was into social projects; Britain's 'poor houses' were almost entirely constructed under successive Liberal governments, and the People's Budget went into effect under a Liberal government.

    About the closest association between 'liberalism' and 'libertarianism' you'll find in the history of English-speaking peoples are the loco focos of New York in the early 19th century. Their influence was small and they never held sway over national politics.

    There are no genuine 'classical liberals' among the earliest American Administrations. The Federalists were certainly not 'liberal', classical or otherwise, favoring infrastructure spending and general social conservatism (which, at the time, meant promoting the values of the Anglican/Episcopalian High Church). The Democrats were hawkish and expansionist in the South and favored intensive social campaigns to the benefit of their immigrant Irish and German constituencies in the North. The Whigs had no coherent ideology at all.

    The impact of 'classical liberalism' (by which I mean real, ideological liberalism, not "let's throw everything that sounds vaguely libertarian under the same banner") was basically nonexistent in the United States until it was ideologically codified in the 1920s. It was stronger in Britain, but bore even less resemblance to modern libertarianism than American liberalism did.
    Last edited by Einzige; 12-30-12 at 02:31 PM.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    No, Bush is a war criminal because he authorized torture and extraordinary rendition to countries that torture.
    First, define "torture", second Congress makes those decisions and so does the military.

    Not to mention torture is a relative term. Progressives act like being offended is torture. I just laugh it off when people try to offend me - it's amusing to me.

    I suppose my point is that it would be ignorant to use Bush as a goat when multiple people from both political parties played a role in what you deem to be "torture."

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    The Magna Carta was devised centuries before anyone ever called themselves a 'liberal' in any sense, and was considered a conservative document in that it was taken to simply reiterate the commonly-assumed rights of the Englishman that had existed before the Norman Invasion. It was not, at all, taken to be 'liberal' even by the standards of the day.



    'Classical liberalism' is not libertarian, in any real sense. Yes, the Liberal Party, under Gladstone and others, favored low taxes and less public spending. They also favored channeling what spending their was into social projects; Britain's 'poor houses' were almost entirely constructed under successive Liberal governments, and the People's Budget went into effect under a Liberal government.

    About the closest association between 'liberalism' and 'libertarianism' you'll find in the history of English-speaking peoples are the loco focos of New York in the early 19th century. Their influence was small and they never held sway over national politics.

    There are no genuine 'classical liberals' among the earliest American Administrations. The Federalists were certainly not 'liberal', classical or otherwise, favoring infrastructure spending and general social conservatism (which, at the time, meant promoting the values of the Anglican/Episcopalian High Church). The Democrats were hawkish and expansionist in the South and favored intensive social campaigns to the benefit of their immigrant Irish and German constituencies in the North. The Whigs had no coherent ideology at all.

    The impact of 'classical liberalism' (by which I mean real, ideological liberalism, not "let's throw everything that sounds vaguely libertarian under the same banner") was basically nonexistent in the United States until it was ideologically codified in the 1920s. It was stronger in Britain, but bore even less resemblance to modern libertarianism than American liberalism did.
    You're confused...

    Conservative means to "conserve" but conserve what?

    Liberal means "liberty"

    Libertarian means "liberty"

    The Magna Carta birthed "classical liberalism" as a philosophy, however the idea/philosophy is probably about as old as humanity itself.

    However none of this matters considering a person who wants to ban guns or ban happy meal toys is NOT a liberal - anyone who believes in government intervention is NOT a liberal. Liberalism is individualism.

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    You're confused...

    Conservative means to "conserve" but conserve what?

    Liberal means "liberty"

    Libertarian means "liberty"
    I'm not even certain what you're trying to say by this.

    The Magna Carta birthed "classical liberalism" as a philosophy, however the idea/philosophy is probably about as old as humanity itself.
    The Magna Carta certainly did not 'breed' 'classical liberalism' as a philosophy, and if anything the party that derived the most influence from the document were the (high tariff, pro-Corn Law protectionist) Tories of the 19th century.

    However none of this matters considering a person who wants to ban guns or ban happy meal toys is NOT a liberal - anyone who believes in government intervention is NOT a liberal. Liberalism is individualism.
    Tell it to Asquith.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    I'm not even certain what you're trying to say by this.



    The Magna Carta certainly did not 'breed' 'classical liberalism' as a philosophy, and if anything the party that derived the most influence from the document were the (high tariff, pro-Corn Law protectionist) Tories of the 19th century.



    Tell it to Asquith.
    The Magna Carta is from 1215. The document certainly did birth classical liberal ideas - at least etched them in stone. Our Bill of Rights and Constitution in general are based on those classical liberal ideas.

    Magna Carta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Notice how the word "liberty" (hence liberal) is continually used.

    BTW, back in 1215 it was the conservatives who supported Monarchies and Theocracies, the liberals (mostly peasants) opposed Monarchies and Theocracies..
    Last edited by Mr.Nick; 12-30-12 at 02:48 PM.

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