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Firefighters Shot Dead at Upstate NY Fire

ttwtt78640 said:
The OP is about NY, not likely to affect TX or our Huntsville prison at all. Your tax money is not even a factor. Trials are not waived simply because of dozens of eyewitnesses or the lack of them.
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It doesn't matter where in the United States danarhea lives, because whether he's in Texas or NY, a shooter local to his area will have the same rights and privileges.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Taking that logic just a tad further; is it the police or a jury that decide your guilt (or lack thereof)? Once we have determined that the police may decide your fate, on the spot, why even make the ambulance call at all, simply let the officer explain that your "escape attempt", required his brave, deadly force, response and save "nature" the trouble, as well.
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There are times when a mathematician writes "trivial" in place of the proof of a statement. There are times when society needs to apply the same idea to murderers caught in the act (e.g. the Colorado Joker). Time, money and effort spent on those POS humans are all wasted. People immediately ask where you draw the line. Without even answering that question, I can confidently say the killing of these firefighters, or the shootings in Connecticut and Colorado would qualify.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The OP is about NY, not likely to affect TX or our Huntsville prison at all. Your tax money is not even a factor. Trials are not waived simply because of dozens of eyewitnesses or the lack of them.
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The OP, which is MINE, I might add, was about New York, but a police officer was gunned down in Houston while I was posting, so I brought it up. THIS is the gunman who was hospitalized after shooting the officer and an innocent bystander. The New York shooter is already dead, so the discussion about whether to save HIS life is not even relevant. Try to keep up. :mrgreen:
 
Mathematician said:
There are times when a mathematician writes "trivial" in place of the proof of a statement. There are times when society needs to apply the same idea to murderers caught in the act (e.g. the Colorado Joker). Time, money and effort spent on those POS humans are all wasted. People immediately ask where you draw the line. Without even answering that question, I can confidently say the killing of these firefighters, or the shootings in Connecticut and Colorado would qualify.
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Yeah, no. I'm not a believer in assigning the lives of some adults a higher value than the lives of other adults. The process and punishment for the crime of murder should be the same no matter who the victim is.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Yeah, no. I'm not a believer in assigning the lives of some adults a higher value than the lives of other adults. The process and punishment for the crime of murder should be the same no matter who the victim is.
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Sorry, but it takes a bigger coward to shoot helpless victims. Furthermore, the younger a victim is the more years of life you have expectedly taken from them.
 
Mathematician said:
Sorry, but it takes a bigger coward to shoot helpless victims. Furthermore, the younger a victim is the more years of life you have expectedly taken from them.
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I don't really care what kind of criminal it takes to shoot what kind of victim, and furthermore while I understands it stirs up certain instincts when a child is murdered, youth doesn't make one life worth any more than another.
 
Just saw this:


Gunman who ambushed firefighters killed grandmother in 1980, police say

The gunman who ambushed four volunteer firefighters, killing two, in upstate New York had spent 17 years in prison for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer in 1980, police said.

William Spengler opened fire on the volunteers as they responded to a blaze just before 6 a.m. ET in a small cluster of homes along Lake Ontario in Webster, N.Y., police said, rocking this close-knit community.

The 62-year-old convicted felon had apparently set a trap, luring in first responders and then firing on them from atop an earthen berm.

"It does appear that it was a trap that was set," said Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering, his voice breaking at times. “People who get up in the middle of the night to fight fires, they don’t expect to get shot and killed."​

Sick bastard.
 
poweRob said:
Just saw this:


Gunman who ambushed firefighters killed grandmother in 1980, police say

The gunman who ambushed four volunteer firefighters, killing two, in upstate New York had spent 17 years in prison for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer in 1980, police said.

William Spengler opened fire on the volunteers as they responded to a blaze just before 6 a.m. ET in a small cluster of homes along Lake Ontario in Webster, N.Y., police said, rocking this close-knit community.​
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Thanks for providing some important data supporting my argument that the expected number of innocent who die will be less if you just put those convicted of murder to death. If what you've presented is true then this could have been prevented by killing the POS years ago.
 
Mathematician said:
Thanks for providing some important data supporting my argument that the expected number of innocent who die will be less if you just put those convicted of murder to death. If what you've presented is true then this could have been prevented by killing the POS years ago.
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Anecdotes do not constitute reliable evidence, and I am aware of no conclusive studies which draw a link between capital punishment and deterrence.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Anecdotes do not constitute reliable evidence, and I am aware of no conclusive studies which draw a link between capital punishment and deterrence.
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I get it. You think a POS crimial's life is of the same value as a six year old child's. I, on the other hand, would rather have a few firefighters alive instead of someone who thinks it's alright to beat their granny to death. This is not a case of deterrence. We're talking about straight up prevention. There are plenty of studies of criminal behavior showing that those wiling to commit felonies are often repeat offenders.
 
Mathematician said:
I get it. You think a POS crimial's life is of the same value as a six year old child's. I, on the other hand, would rather have a few firefighters alive instead of someone who thinks it's alright to beat their granny to death. This is not a case of deterrence. We're talking about straight up prevention. There are plenty of studies of criminal behavior showing that those wiling to commit felonies are often repeat offenders.
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I think all human life has intrinsic value and that all human beings have an equal potential to do things both wonderful and horrible. My primary issue with capital punishment, more than anything else, is the potential for a wrongful execution. Secondary to that is the fact that I don't think it actually causes a measurable decrease in crime. The US is a nation of over 300 million people, and I imagine that for every murderer we sentence to death there are many more waiting in the wings.

In short, you are under the mistaken impression that executing someone before they commit more murders will spare the lives of their future victims. It doesn't work that way.
 
poweRob said:
Just saw this:

Gunman who ambushed firefighters killed grandmother in 1980, police say

The gunman who ambushed four volunteer firefighters, killing two, in upstate New York had spent 17 years in prison for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer in 1980, police said.

William Spengler opened fire on the volunteers as they responded to a blaze just before 6 a.m. ET in a small cluster of homes along Lake Ontario in Webster, N.Y., police said, rocking this close-knit community.

The 62-year-old convicted felon had apparently set a trap, luring in first responders and then firing on them from atop an earthen berm.

"It does appear that it was a trap that was set," said Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering, his voice breaking at times. “People who get up in the middle of the night to fight fires, they don’t expect to get shot and killed."​

Sick bastard.
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Anybody who could kill his own grandmother to death with a hammer is damaged goods. Damaged goods in that there is no possible rehabilitation possible. That is beyond sick, that is fricking evil.

You cannot let evil go back into society. The death penalty is not a solution anymore as the legal system is set up with enough appeals to bankrupt a small community. Plus we have time after time seen innocent men on death row set free by DNA findings.

I agree this guy deserves the death penalty just as that punkass in CT would have if he lived. But that is neither there or here now. Why did this POS get set free? I can see in a moment of rage one might pull a trigger but to beat someone to death with a hammer is upclose and personal. He was a sick SOB and wouldn't suprize me if he sexually molested her too.

I don't see why the firemen's family can't go back and sue the parole board who set this bastard free in the first place. After you catch a rat in your trap in your basement you sure as hell don't let it go free.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
In short, you are under the mistaken impression that executing someone before they commit more murders will spare the lives of their future victims. It doesn't work that way.
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Although it would have here no?
 
MaggieD said:
I hate liking this post because of your last line. But the rest of it I agree with. Many of these neighborhoods are not safe for city workers, and that's the truth. Maybe you're right. Maybe they should just let them do a controlled burn -- and relocate/scatter these people throughout cities and suburbs as a condition of receiving public assistance. They have safety in their numbers. The rest of us are in danger because of the same.
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So you want them in your neighborhood. That's novel. Don't you know they will bring the slum with them?
 
Hicup said:
This happened in my neck of the woods and the area is not a good area for anyone to be in.

Why would anyone shoot at first responders is beyond my comprehension unless it was an extremist of some sort trying to make a point about guns or something?


Tim-
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Well in Nashville a few years back someone on the campus of TSU ordered pizza and shot the delivery boy.
 
danarhea said:
Damn, while posting in this thead, a special report just came on the news. 3 shot about 20 blocks from where I live. A police officer is dead, and so is an innocent bystander. The shooter is in the hospital in critical condition, which brings me to another one of my patented rants.

Why the hell are they attempting to save the shooter's life, when we are eventually going to spend millions of taxpayer dollars putting him on trial, imprisoning him for a number of years, before finally putting him to death? It does not make sense. This shooter killed a cop, along with someone who was shopping and minding his own damn business. Let this punk die.

/rant
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Because the people doing the saving are doctors and nurses, not executioners.
 
Crosscheck said:
You cannot let evil go back into society. The death penalty is not a solution anymore as the legal system is set up with enough appeals to bankrupt a small community. Plus we have time after time seen innocent men on death row set free by DNA findings.

I agree this guy deserves the death penalty just as that punkass in CT would have if he lived. But that is neither there or here now. Why did this POS get set free? I can see in a moment of rage one might pull a trigger but to beat someone to death with a hammer is upclose and personal. He was a sick SOB and wouldn't suprize me if he sexually molested her too.

I don't see why the firemen's family can't go back and sue the parole board who set this bastard free in the first place. After you catch a rat in your trap in your basement you sure as hell don't let it go free.
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Hell, we do the bolded all the time, because they are deemed insane, and God knows we can't apply justice to insane people, now can we? (sarcasm)

As far as I am concerned, people like this need to be put down like the rabid dogs they are.
 
MaggieD said:
I hate liking this post because of your last line. But the rest of it I agree with. Many of these neighborhoods are not safe for city workers, and that's the truth. Maybe you're right. Maybe they should just let them do a controlled burn -- and relocate/scatter these people throughout cities and suburbs as a condition of receiving public assistance. They have safety in their numbers. The rest of us are in danger because of the same.
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No controlled burn and scattering of the people who live in that environment. They live in that environment because they don't demand anything better of themselves, or of their community and neighbors. They aren't victims of living in a bad area- they are a part of the cause.
 
People who do this stuff are not 'gun rights advocates.' They are garden variety thugs.
 
lizzie said:
No controlled burn and scattering of the people who live in that environment. They live in that environment because they don't demand anything better of themselves, or of their community and neighbors. They aren't victims of living in a bad area- they are a part of the cause.
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Several years ago I had a tech working on my floor who had managed to work her way out of the projects. Then she got into a bind, I don't recall what exactly. But she pawned everthing she owned trying to stay out of the projects.
 
Maenad said:
Several years ago I had a tech working on my floor who had managed to work her way out of the projects. Then she got into a bind, I don't recall what exactly. But she pawned everthing she owned trying to stay out of the projects.
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I don't blame her, and I would do the same. My point is that slums exist because people put up with it. They don't exert their will to change their environment, and they settle for living in a bad neighborhood. There is no way in hell I would put up with that, and that is exactly the reason I don't have to.
 
j-mac said:
Although it would have here no?
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Mathematician said:
Unless he thinks the killer will come back for revenge as a zombie, his claim is downright absurd.
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Three concepts have been brought up in this thread, with respect to capital punishment:

1. Preventing a particular individual from committing future murders
2. Preventing particular victims from being murdered
3. Preventing murder in general or otherwise causing a decrease in the murder rate

You guys are focused on #1 and claiming that #2 and #3 are the natural consequence of that focus. What I'm saying is that while capital punishment quite obviously achieves #1, that's all it does.
 
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