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Firefighters Shot Dead at Upstate NY Fire

lizzie said:
No controlled burn and scattering of the people who live in that environment. They live in that environment because they don't demand anything better of themselves, or of their community and neighbors. They aren't victims of living in a bad area- they are a part of the cause.
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There once was a time when I would've replied "Rush Limbaugh, is that YUO," but there are too many talking heads on the radio spewing this nonsense for me to be so specific.

Suffice it to say it's pretty obvious you aren't speaking from particularly intimate experience with the phenomena.
 
lizzie said:
I don't blame her, and I would do the same. My point is that slums exist because people put up with it. They don't exert their will to change their environment, and they settle for living in a bad neighborhood. There is no way in hell I would put up with that, and that is exactly the reason I don't have to.
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A few years back in Nashville, the local newspaper sent a couple of reporters to live in the projects for a few months to do an exposé. I don't recall what the guy pretended to be, out of work maybe, but the woman pretended to be a manicure student. Anyway, they wrote a very revealing piece after a time. And the scattah hit the fan. The people who lived there were indignant and had everyone to know that they had a strong sense of 'community' etc. etc. etc. Eventually the newspaper issued an apology to the 'community.' Plenty of people who live in the projects are invested in living there. They refuse to go anywhere else. Not only that, but you need to think of some of the cultural issues working here. Plenty of project dwellers get money to go to school. But it is their home 'neighborhood.' All their family and friends live there. It is most uncomfortable for a lot of people to leave their old diggs. And then there is the social pressure that is exerted on the person for trying to be ' uppity and better than the rest of us.' In order to leave, they have to cut ties with everyone they hold dear. You simply cannot understand the pressures that are working there unless you have had some exposure to them.

Of course I would never live there if there was any way around it. But my family and friends aren't there.
 
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TacticalEvilDan said:
There once was a time when I would've replied "Rush Limbaugh, is that YUO," but there are too many talking heads on the radio spewing this nonsense for me to be so specific.

Suffice it to say it's pretty obvious you aren't speaking from particularly intimate experience with the phenomena.
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Yes, this is true. She would crap a duck if a family of them moved in next door to her.
 
Maenad said:
A few years back in Nashville, the local newspaper sent a couple of reporters to live in the projects for a few months. I don't recall what the guy pretended to be, but the woman pretended to be a manicure student. Anyway, they wrote a very revealing piece after a time. And the scattah hit the fan. The people who lived there were indignant and had everyone to know that they had a strong sense of 'community' etc. etc. etc. Eventually the newspaper issued an apology to the 'community.' Plenty of people who live in the projects are invested in living there. They refuse to go anywhere else. Not only that, but you need to think of some of the cultural issues working here. Plenty of project dwellers get money to go to school. But it is their 'neighborhood.' All their family and friends live there. It is most uncomfortable for a lot of people to leave their old diggs. And then there is the social pressure that is exerted on the person for trying to be ' uppity and better than the rest of us.' You simply cannot understand the pressures that are working there unless you have had some exposure to them.

Of course I would never live there if there was any way around it. But my family and friends aren't there.
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I'd like to see a link to that article, if you don't mind.
 
Longstreet said:
The shooter should have never been released from prison. He used a hammer to kill his grandmother.
Time to reexamine societies mechanisms for identifying threats.
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I guess we should be happy that he did not use a firearm to kill is grandma, eh?
 
Henry David said:
I guess we should be happy that he did not use a firearm to kill is grandma, eh?
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No. You should be happy it wasn't you or a loved one of yours killed by this SOB because we were stupid enough to let him go free after seeing the type of acts he was willing to commit.
 
Maenad said:
A few years back in Nashville, the local newspaper sent a couple of reporters to live in the projects for a few months to do an exposé. I don't recall what the guy pretended to be, out of work maybe, but the woman pretended to be a manicure student. Anyway, they wrote a very revealing piece after a time. And the scattah hit the fan. The people who lived there were indignant and had everyone to know that they had a strong sense of 'community' etc. etc. etc. Eventually the newspaper issued an apology to the 'community.' Plenty of people who live in the projects are invested in living there. They refuse to go anywhere else. Not only that, but you need to think of some of the cultural issues working here. Plenty of project dwellers get money to go to school. But it is their home 'neighborhood.' All their family and friends live there. It is most uncomfortable for a lot of people to leave their old diggs. And then there is the social pressure that is exerted on the person for trying to be ' uppity and better than the rest of us.' In order to leave, they have to cut ties with everyone they hold dear. You simply cannot understand the pressures that are working there unless you have had some exposure to them.

Of course I would never live there if there was any way around it. But my family and friends aren't there.
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Everyone has an excuse for everything. Don't feed me that you're too attached to the ghetto because you have friends and/or family living there and then complain about living there. You say there's a sense of "community". I assume it's that "community" spirit and love for your homies in the ghetto with you that makes the ghetto such a safe and happy place to live.
 
Mathematician said:
No. You should be happy it wasn't you or a loved one of yours killed by this SOB because we were stupid enough to let him go free after seeing the type of acts he was willing to commit.
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Egads! Then I guess we are REALLY stupid to elect a man to President after seeing the types of acts he is willing to commit with drones,eh?
 
Henry David said:
Egads! Then I guess we are REALLY stupid to elect a man to President after seeing the types of acts he is willing to commit with drones,eh?
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Nice effort to divert.
 
Mathematician said:
Nice effort to divert.
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Not really diverting, just expanding the picture a bit. Using some of Louis Brandeis' wisdom and words from the last century that may have somehow motivated the shooter: From Olmstead, "The government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example."

There are many who are aware of the immoral and murderous ways of the government, and everybody reacts a little differently. I'm not in anyway attempting to justify what happened, but maybe just possibly explain it.

We blame video games for the violence displayed by youngsters. Is there any blame to be laid at the feet of those who murder and invade under fraud and usurpation?
 
Mathematician said:
I'm all for the slow and painful death to this type of person. Just credit me for an hour of community service and I'll do the honors of putting the shooter through the wood chipper.
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seems to me burning at the stake would be the appropriate death for someone who ambushes brave firefighters
 
TurtleDude said:
seems to me burning at the stake would be the appropriate death for someone who ambushes brave firefighters
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why wate a good steak? when there are starving lions:mrgreen:
 
winston53660 said:
why wate a good steak? when there are starving lions:mrgreen:
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STAKE MY good man not STEAK

after sandy we have a glut of broken telephone line poles that would serve the purpose quite well
 
TurtleDude said:
STAKE MY good man not STEAK

after sandy we have a glut of broken telephone line poles that would serve the purpose quite well
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Have you no heart? I say feed the scum to the poor starving lions!:mrgreen:
 
Mathematician said:
No. You should be happy it wasn't you or a loved one of yours killed by this SOB because we were stupid enough to let him go free after seeing the type of acts he was willing to commit.
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Yep. Liberal justice (plea deals, probation and parole), cost savings for courts and prisons and simply believing in the "goodness" of all folks is tricky. Many even object to three strikes laws, while I lean more to one big one, as an adult, and you are done. If criminal convictions and sentences are not seen as absolutes then all else is an exercise in time/money wasting. The huge nanny state can never substitute for personal responsibility, no matter how big it is allowed to get. Most, the vast majority of, people are good, but the bad, once detected and proven to be so are expendable, IMHO.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Those things have very little to do with "liberal" justice and very much to do with system-level congestion/overcrowding and budgetary concerns.
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Really? How many citizens, if asked, would honestly prefer to support deadbeats on the dole than to permanently lock up carreer criminals? We largely have a judicial system of 1st time = warning, 2nd time = stern warning, 3rd time = fine/probation, 4th time = bigger fine and minimal jail time, 5th time = some time in prison and 6th time = long time in prison. Of course, these "times" are based only on actual convictions, many crimes go unsolved, possibly even undetected/unreported; so multiply the conviction "times" by the number of offenses not resulting in arrest and conviction, and you may begin to see my point.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Really? How many citizens, if asked, would honestly prefer to support deadbeats on the dole than to permanently lock up carreer criminals?
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That's all well and good, but the decisions regarding plea deals, probation and parole are not made by the average citizen.

ttwtt78640 said:
We largely have a judicial system of 1st time = warning, 2nd time = stern warning, 3rd time = fine/probation, 4th time = bigger fine and minimal jail time, 5th time = some time in prison and 6th time = long time in prison.
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That depends on what part of the justice system you're talking about, and what kind of crime you're talking about. The criminal justice system has largely been politicized, and many times the end result is far harsher than is in fact productive.

ttwtt78640 said:
Of course, these "times" are based only on actual convictions, many crimes go unsolved, possibly even undetected/unreported; so multiply the conviction "times" by the number of offenses not resulting in arrest and conviction, and you may begin to see my point.
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Multiply by the unknowable number? Um, okay.
 
Mathematician said:
Everyone has an excuse for everything. Don't feed me that you're too attached to the ghetto because you have friends and/or family living there and then complain about living there. You say there's a sense of "community". I assume it's that "community" spirit and love for your homies in the ghetto with you that makes the ghetto such a safe and happy place to live.
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I didn't say there was a sense of community. I said that THEY said that. And there are plenty of people here where I live who would do much better, since there are really no jobs and not everyone wants to be a farmer, if they moved. But they are attached to their families and will not. Here's a suggestion: Go work in the projects for a couple of years. Then maybe you won't be entirely clueless. Everyone is not like you. And not everyone has the same values you have. And here's a flash: You aren't going to make them be like you or share your values.

BTW: If you add and subtract like you read, you can't be very prosperous!
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
That's all well and good, but the decisions regarding plea deals, probation and parole are not made by the average citizen.
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Indeed, but public policy is made by our elected representatives and is thus subject to change.



That depends on what part of the justice system you're talking about, and what kind of crime you're talking about. The criminal justice system has largely been politicized, and many times the end result is far harsher than is in fact productive.
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Maybe, but it is still very rare for cases to go to trial regardless of type or level. As for vast variation in sentences, for even the same crime, that is a fact I will not attempt to dispute; that too, requires justice sytem/law changes.

Multiply by the unknowable number? Um, okay.
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The statistics are available for reports vs. convictions (solve rate) and vary considerably from fairly good for murder 1 to very poor for property crime, but you are correct in that one must simply guess at the not reported rate.
 
Maenad said:
I didn't say there was a sense of community. I said that THEY said that. And there are plenty of people here where I live who would do much better, since there are really no jobs and not everyone wants to be a farmer, if they moved. But they are attached to their families and will not. Here's a suggestion: Go work in the projects for a couple of years. Then maybe you won't be entirely clueless. Everyone is not like you. And not everyone has the same values you have. And here's a flash: You aren't going to make them be like you or share your values.

BTW: If you add and subtract like you read, you can't be very prosperous!
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First off, I never said YOU said there was a sense of community. My statement was directed towards anyone who chooses to stay there and still fusses about how bad it is. I grew up some of my years in the slums of Baltimore. I hated it like many do. However, instead of complaining about it, I put in extra effort to get ahead in school. That's how I got scholarships for undergrad and an employer who payed for my grad school based on my overachieving as an undergrad. I know what that crap life is like and I know how to get out of it. I have made my way from the projects to a $600,000+ condo. Unfortunately, the majority whine about their situation when they could actually do something about it if they tried worth a darn. Their lack of values is precisely why they don't get anywhere.
 
Mathematician said:
First off, I never said YOU said there was a sense of community. My statement was directed towards anyone who chooses to stay there and still fusses about how bad it is. I grew up some of my years in the slums of Baltimore. I hated it like many do. However, instead of complaining about it, I put in extra effort to get ahead in school. That's how I got scholarships for undergrad and an employer who payed for my grad school based on my overachieving as an undergrad. I know what that crap life is like and I know how to get out of it. I have made my way from the projects to a $600,000+ condo. Unfortunately, the majority whine about their situation when they could actually do something about it if they tried worth a darn. Their lack of values is precisely why they don't get anywhere.
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Here is what you wrote:

Mathematician said:
Everyone has an excuse for everything. Don't feed me that you're too attached to the ghetto because you have friends and/or family living there and then complain about living there. You say there's a sense of "community". I assume it's that "community" spirit and love for your homies in the ghetto with you that makes the ghetto such a safe and happy place to live.
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So now your memory is as bad as your math an readng skills. LOL. Convene your discussion with someone else. You have no credibility with me.
 
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