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NRA Newtown response [W:818]

I think there is a big difference in saying police we already have should guard schools and being in favor of more government. INdeed, most of us libertarians believe that an essential and legitimate purpose of government is police guarding against violent crime.

and many of us merely want to get rid of gun free zones meaning teachers who want to can carry and when my wife (who is at my son's private school constantly since she volunteers in the gift/book shop and chaperones field trips) is there she can bring her Sig into the school rather than locking it in the car as required
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
Actually those are largely regulated in modern Japan. The key issue is time. Given enough time with restrictive gun laws, and a culture will change. And note to be clear, I do not favor such a solution for the US.
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Well we have had war on drugs for decades.
 
TurtleDude said:
someone once noted the reason why gun issues never got much attention in law journals (we are talking 25 years ago) was

Conservatives hate rights and Liberals hate guns

of course the "right" is split between the law and order authoritarian wing and my wing-the libertarian lockean wing

but I have always been amazed that those who claim they are for the "common man" and the poor are usually collectivists and that includes firepower
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:lamo

That is perfect,m and represents the humor I see in the issue.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
Well we have had war on drugs for decades.
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Not quite the same thing. If we have to go into comparisons, I will have too much fun comparing how drug use and gun ownership are both to make the person feel better about themselves, and you don't want me to have that kind of fun.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
Not quite the same thing. If we have to go into comparisons, I will have too much fun comparing how drug use and gun ownership are both to make the person feel better about themselves, and you don't want me to have that kind of fun.
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the difference is that unlike crack there will always be a steady stream of guns even if the nonleo civilian market is banned. every year the us military "loses" thousands of real machine rifles and civilian LEO agencies lose a bunch of weapons-both issued weapons and confiscated ones
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
the difference is that unlike crack there will always be a steady stream of guns even if the nonleo civilian market is banned. every year the us military "loses" thousands of real machine rifles and civilian LEO agencies lose a bunch of weapons-both issued weapons and confiscated ones
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I have never liked the argument that we should not make something illegal because then people will break the law.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
I have never liked the argument that we should not make something illegal because then people will break the law.
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if it causes the potential of massive resistance than I think that is a good reason not to do it

But what I was noting is that there will always be a supply of black market guns from the legitimate sales to the government

there is no such supply for contraband narcotics

I also note no one who supports restrictions on normal capacity magazines (a "high capacity magazine is one that holds more rounds than the normally supplied magazine for the gun-not one that is more than ten rounds as the anti gunners would want us to believe) can demonstrate any evidence that the bans would decrease crime. ten years of the Clinton law failed to create any such evidence
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
if it causes the potential of massive resistance than I think that is a good reason not to do it

But what I was noting is that there will always be a supply of black market guns from the legitimate sales to the government

there is no such supply for contraband narcotics

I also note no one who supports restrictions on normal capacity magazines (a "high capacity magazine is one that holds more rounds than the normally supplied magazine for the gun-not one that is more than ten rounds as the anti gunners would want us to believe) can demonstrate any evidence that the bans would decrease crime. ten years of the Clinton law failed to create any such evidence
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Massive resistance is something that gets talked about much more than ever happens. People will claim that they will resist, right up until they think about the comforts they will be giving up.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
Actually those are largely regulated in modern Japan. The key issue is time. Given enough time with restrictive gun laws, and a culture will change. And note to be clear, I do not favor such a solution for the US.
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So then what is YOUR solution? It's funny how people talk about "restricting" our second amendment rights, but then say they don't really mean it. Makes one wonder.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

ChrisL said:
So then what is YOUR solution? It's funny how people talk about "restricting" our second amendment rights, but then say they don't really mean it. Makes one wonder.
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My solution is to do nothing. I am perfectly OK with things as they are.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
My solution is to do nothing. I am perfectly OK with things as they are.
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I think we need to do something about our mental health issues here in United States. I don't think incidents such as Sandy Hook are related to guns or the second amendment but related to the stigma that people with mental health issues have to face, not to mention lack of appropriate treatment for them.

Another problem I see is how a lot of younger people glamorize violence. Just listen to the words of any gangsta rap song.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
You know there are millions of us who are pro-gun control but not based on faith. I also think the vast majority are in the world of reality and know that total bans are a fantasy that will never, ever happen.

Banning AR type weapons and large magazines is not total gun control and people are not asking for that - I've not seen one national politician come out with that stance. How do you account for the low crime and murder rate in NYC since strict gun registration was enacted? With 9 million or so residents it seems that very few of my neighbors own guns yet we're safe and the murder rate here continues to decrease dramatically, how come?
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The thing is that banning things only creates a black market for those items, and the only people that will be able to get them are criminals. So it's kind of silly actually.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

ChrisL said:
I think we need to do something about our mental health issues here in United States. I don't think incidents such as Sandy Hook are related to guns or the second amendment but related to the stigma that people with mental health issues have to face, not to mention lack of appropriate treatment for them.

Another problem I see is how a lot of younger people glamorize violence. Just listen to the words of any gangsta rap song.
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Less than 100 people where killed this year from mass shootings. It is not exactly an epidemic. U.S. mass shootings in 2012 - The Washington Post
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
Less than 100 people where killed this year from mass shootings. It is not exactly an epidemic. U.S. mass shootings in 2012 - The Washington Post
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I'm aware of that. As a matter of fact, I posted almost the same thing already, but don't think for ONE minute that NOTHING will be done. SOMETHING is going to happen as a result of this latest shooting, and it's probably going to be more bans.
 
Redress said:
Badly worded. Let me try this: liberals who support second amendment rights(which is IIRC about 40 % of self identified liberals) are consistent with the basic liberal position of being in favor of civil rights. The basic conservative position(ie, held by most conservatives, not derived from conservative ideology) tends to be restrictive on rights, except the second amendment.

It is funny however that for those who base their positions on ideology(that is, they from a basic liberal or conservative philosophy), and not on what the liberal or conservative position on an issue is supposed to be, both liberal and conservative tend to arrive at a broad, consistent civil rights position. Where inconsistent positions enter in is when one simply adopts positions based on whether they are "liberal" or "conservative". I find it especially amusing that in the wake of the latest tragedy, the base conservative position(meaning shared by an at least plurality of conservatives) is a big government position of adding guards and creating a national database, while the base liberal position is one of taking away rights. The irony in both is amazing.
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Gotcha. That makes more sense. And it is a rather funny thing when it comes to positions over ideology. It's an issue present in a lot of debates sadly
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
so the staff (Bo) the sickle (Kama) the tool used for weeding (the Sai) the rice grinder (tonfa) and the rice flail (Nunchaku) became weapons
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I enjoyed the nice slip in of martial arts history in there. On a somewhat off topic note, it's sad that with the move away from traditional arts in the modern craze of MMA that some of the history will become much more obscure.
 
Zyphlin said:
Gotcha. That makes more sense. And it is a rather funny thing when it comes to positions over ideology. It's an issue present in a lot of debates sadly
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I thought you might appreciate the positions vs ideology thing.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:
I enjoyed the nice slip in of martial arts history in there. On a somewhat off topic note, it's sad that with the move away from traditional arts in the modern craze of MMA that some of the history will become much more obscure.
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Not surprisingly, in Japan despite the prevalence of MMA, the history aspect of martial arts is still very much alive. It is in fact an integral part to much of their pop entertainment.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
Actually those are largely regulated in modern Japan. The key issue is time. Given enough time with restrictive gun laws, and a culture will change. And note to be clear, I do not favor such a solution for the US.
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Your point is a good one. I never read explanations from the very pro-gun members of this community that can explain how there is so much more gun violence in the US than virtually any other "civilized" country. The common denominator for the countries that have a far lower gun violence rate is gun control which is a fact that our gun junkies in this country almost completely ignore. Why? They don't have a response that makes any sense.

Licensing gun owners the way we do drivers would surely be a major advance. The ruse of the right is to say that licensing gun owners = taking guns away but that's not at all the case unless the gun owner can't pass a written and practical test that licenses them.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
I also note no one who supports restrictions on normal capacity magazines (a "high capacity magazine is one that holds more rounds than the normally supplied magazine for the gun-not one that is more than ten rounds as the anti gunners would want us to believe) can demonstrate any evidence that the bans would decrease crime. ten years of the Clinton law failed to create any such evidence
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Can you show that the Clinton ban INCREASED crime because of the law?
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Can you show that the Clinton ban INCREASED crime because of the law?
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that's not a relevant question. you do not defend a law by saying it did not increase crime
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Your point is a good one. I never read explanations from the very pro-gun members of this community that can explain how there is so much more gun violence in the US than virtually any other "civilized" country. The common denominator for the countries that have a far lower gun violence rate is gun control which is a fact that our gun junkies in this country almost completely ignore. Why? They don't have a response that makes any sense.

Licensing gun owners the way we do drivers would surely be a major advance. The ruse of the right is to say that licensing gun owners = taking guns away but that's not at all the case unless the gun owner can't pass a written and practical test that licenses them.
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I really do not think licensing guns would have a significant impact on gun violence. I would not support such a measure.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
I feel that you're suggesting that the law would increase crime hence my request.
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well it did in the sense that some people bought Post ban weapons and converted them to Pre ban. this normally involved buying an AR 15 style rifle which was sold without "flash hiders" "bayonet lugs" etc and replacing the top half of the rifle with ones that had those features. the people who wanted normal capacity (15-21 round) pistol magazines are the competition practical shooters where you are scored on TIME as well as accuracy so less reloading of the pistol is an advantage. If you came into the sport after the ban the magazines were extremely (150 dollar rather than 20-30 pre ban) expensive but there were "replacement" kits available meaning if you OWNED a 20 round magazine and it broke you could replace the broken part. Some people broke the law by actually creating new normal capacity magazines
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Licensing gun owners the way we do drivers would surely be a major advance. The ruse of the right is to say that licensing gun owners = taking guns away but that's not at all the case unless the gun owner can't pass a written and practical test that licenses them.
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Do you believe it would be constitutional....not if you'd agree with it, not if you'd think it'd be needed, not if you think it's "wrong"....to require people to be liscensed prior to be able to speak in a public venue about politics?
 
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