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Thread: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The second amendment hurdle is the big one, but the effects of gun restrictions on a nationwide level is highly debated among those those who have studied it professionally, with the basic belief being that there simply is not enough accurate data to draw real conclusions from.
    So... there isn't enough data to form a reasoned, sound argument for stricter gun laws.
    I'd also add that most suggestions for stricter gun laws cannot be shown to prevent the acts that they are poroposed in response to.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well it did in the sense that some people bought Post ban weapons and converted them to Pre ban. this normally involved buying an AR 15 style rifle which was sold without "flash hiders" "bayonet lugs" etc and replacing the top half of the rifle with ones that had those features. the people who wanted normal capacity (15-21 round) pistol magazines are the competition practical shooters where you are scored on TIME as well as accuracy so less reloading of the pistol is an advantage. If you came into the sport after the ban the magazines were extremely (150 dollar rather than 20-30 pre ban) expensive but there were "replacement" kits available meaning if you OWNED a 20 round magazine and it broke you could replace the broken part. Some people broke the law by actually creating new normal capacity magazines
    I think you will acknowledge that when we talk about a rise in crime we're not talking about what you wrote. I was referring to a rise in gun crime / violent crime because of the ban on certain weapons and clips.
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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    So... there isn't enough data to form a reasoned, sound argument for stricter gun laws.
    Correct.

    I'd also add that most suggestions for stricter gun laws cannot be shown to prevent the acts that they are poroposed in response to.
    Cannot be proven, correct.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Do you believe it would be constitutional....not if you'd agree with it, not if you'd think it'd be needed, not if you think it's "wrong"....to require people to be liscensed prior to be able to speak in a public venue about politics?
    I do not understand your analogy? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech unless you yell "Fire" etc. Licensing a gun owner the way we do a driver seems constitutional and rational to me. What about licensing do you object to? Who would it prevent from owning or buying a gun?
    “The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by jakiejakester View Post
    I think you will acknowledge that when we talk about a rise in crime we're not talking about what you wrote. I was referring to a rise in gun crime / violent crime because of the ban on certain weapons and clips.
    there is no evidence the law impacted crime at all. we do know that several well publicized mass murders did occur during the ban period including Columbine. of course pipe bombs are 100% contraband and the two killers had those devices as well

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by jakiejakester View Post
    I do not understand your analogy? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech unless you yell "Fire" etc. Licensing a gun owner the way we do a driver seems constitutional and rational to me. What about licensing do you object to? Who would it prevent from owning or buying a gun?
    you cannot require a criminal to apply for a license or register a gun since that violates his right against incrimination. so such schemes cannot even apply to the people most likely to misuse a gun. its illegal to fire a gun in a theater unless you are being attacked-just as its legal to yell fire if there is indeed a fire

    don't confuse use restrictions with bans on possession

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by jakiejakester View Post
    I do not understand your analogy? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech unless you yell "Fire" etc. Licensing a gun owner the way we do a driver seems constitutional and rational to me. What about licensing do you object to? Who would it prevent from owning or buying a gun?
    What he is asking is if you find the idea of needing a license to engage in a constitutionally guaranteed right would pass muster, or more specifically a right guaranteed under the bill of rights. I can think of a couple legal arguments that could be used, but I have real doubts as to how effective those arguments would be in court.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by jakiejakester View Post
    I do not understand your analogy?
    I asked a very simple question. Are you going to answer it or not? I'll be happy to explain further rationale once you actually respond to the question I ask. If you're going to refrain from do it and just start guessing at my intent without actually engaging in a discussion then there's really no reason to bother explaining myself further.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by jakiejakester View Post
    I do not understand your analogy? Freedom of speech is freedom of speech unless you yell "Fire" etc. Licensing a gun owner the way we do a driver seems constitutional and rational to me. What about licensing do you object to? Who would it prevent from owning or buying a gun?
    If you do not think it would prevent people from owning a gun, why would you want gun owners to be licensed since it wouldn't do anything except create government revenue and have no effect on who gets guns? I don't understand your rationale at all......

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    there is no evidence the law impacted crime at all. we do know that several well publicized mass murders did occur during the ban period including Columbine. of course pipe bombs are 100% contraband and the two killers had those devices as well
    True, there is no statistical support for the proposition that the AWB reduced gun homicides. OTOH, the results are probably skewed for several reasons:

    1. Gun manufacturers ramped up AW manufacture and import prior to the ban going into effect;
    2. That contributed to the already large stockpile of existing AWs;
    3. The ban didn't last long enough to see a meaningful reduction in the stockpile.

    Over all there is evidence that stricter gun laws reduce gun deaths and violence, but there is no ... ahem ... magic bullet regulation. What can make a difference is a combination of tighter restrictions, such as requiring background checks for private sales, limiting magazine capacity, stricter carry laws, laws requiring the securing of stored guns, etc., etc.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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