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Thread: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    He initially felt it unnecessary, not the only short-sighted assumption made by the Founders in not anticipating the over-reach of later governement. Regardless, he eventually endorsed it fully.

    Madison and the Bill of Rights
    That is correct, yes.

    Back to the topic at hand. The literal translation of the 2nd Amendment is that the right to bear arms will not be impeded. Just as the First Amendment says not a damn thing about seperation of church and state.

    Most Liberals struggle mightily with the above two assertions of fact. If you do not, than you are the rare one.
    Actually, you are interpreting the second amendment, in this case by removing part of it. A literal reading would be one that includes the whole of the amendment, and nothing more than the amendment. And to the point I raised, nowhere in the second amendment does it say nor imply that the intention of the amendment was to guard against the government itself, which is what Mr. Nick claimed, while saying that interpretation was bad. I once again am not sure why people are having such a hard time with this. I am merely pointing out a posters hypocrisy.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Chicago also has strict gun control. 'splain please.
    The explanation is that gun bans do not work.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A literal reading would be one that includes the whole of the amendment, and nothing more than the amendment.
    He said it was a literal translation not a literal reading. If you're going to be snarky, you should at least try not to be utterly wrong.

    And in view of Heller, what is said about the second amendment is entirely correct.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is correct, yes.



    Actually, you are interpreting the second amendment, in this case by removing part of it. A literal reading would be one that includes the whole of the amendment, and nothing more than the amendment. And to the point I raised, nowhere in the second amendment does it say nor imply that the intention of the amendment was to guard against the government itself, which is what Mr. Nick claimed, while saying that interpretation was bad. I once again am not sure why people are having such a hard time with this. I am merely pointing out a posters hypocrisy.
    While I would agree with that part of your distinction which I bolded, I also see it as a moot point, except for the sake of trivial debate. The better argument is that the Founders primary reason for the Second Amendment was precisely to defend the First Amendment against a tyranical government. Which sets the bar very high in interpreting the nature of the extent which they felt the average citizen should be able to arm themselves .... essentailly to the same extent as the government !

    I will parapharase, but I laugh at our just reelected Senator down here, Bill Nelson, who recently said "assault weapons are for killing, not hunting". Well, "No $hit Bill Nelson". And so what ? If I must arm myself against a tyranical government, then killing is the tack at hand. Unfortunately, many liberals think he makes sense, and that somehow we were intended to only have squirrel rifles, if that.

    I do not think that the poster you took issue with was being at all hypocritical. They were merely pointing out the highest intended application of Second Amendment rights. Which is not hunting. Not protecting your property from intrusion. It is to be able to take arms against your government. That is the biggest umbrella, under which all other things have room. And it is exactly as our Founders intended, having taken arms against a tyrannical government themselves.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    He said it was a literal translation not a literal reading. If you're going to be snarky, you should at least try not to be utterly wrong.
    His views are neither a literal translation, not a literal reading. If you are going to be snarky, you should at least try not to be utterly wrong.

    And in view of Heller, what is said about the second amendment is entirely correct.
    This has exactly jack and **** to do with what I have said. Why bring it up in reply to my post?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    While I would agree with that part of your distinction which I bolded, I also see it as a moot point, except for the sake of trivial debate. The better argument is that the Founders primary reason for the Second Amendment was precisely to defend the First Amendment against a tyranical government. Which sets the bar very high in interpreting the nature of the extent which they felt the average citizen should be able to arm themselves .... essentailly to the same extent as the government !

    I will parapharase, but I laugh at our just reelectd Senator down here, Bill Nelson, who recently said "assault weapons are for killing, not hunting". Well, "No $hit Bill Nelson". And so what ? If I must arm myself against a tyranical government, then killing is the tack at hand.

    I do not think that the poster you took issue with was being at all hypocritical. They were merely pointing out the highest intended application of Second Amendment rights. Which is not hunting. Not protecting your property from intrusion. It is to be able to take arms against your government. That is the biggest umbrella, under which all other things have room. And it is exactly as our Founders intended, having taken arms against a tyrannical government themselves.
    If you are going to do that, and I have no problem if you want to, then you have to stop the nonsense about not interpreting the constitution, since that is exactly what it takes to arrive at your conclusion. The Second Amendment, in no way, shape, nor form, refers to defending against the state, but in fact refers to defending the state.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually, you are interpreting the second amendment, in this case by removing part of it. A literal reading would be one that includes the whole of the amendment, and nothing more than the amendment. And to the point I raised, nowhere in the second amendment does it say nor imply that the intention of the amendment was to guard against the government itself....
    ...the security of a free state...
    This statement is plenary, covering all possible threats to said security, which then necessarily includes a tyrannical federal government.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If you are going to do that, and I have no problem if you want to, then you have to stop the nonsense about not interpreting the constitution, since that is exactly what it takes to arrive at your conclusion. The Second Amendment, in no way, shape, nor form, refers to defending against the state, but in fact refers to defending the state.
    You have gone and made an assumption, while saying that assumptions should not be made. You seem to have forgotten that at such as Lexington and Concord, it was militias that fired upon "the state". Militias are not the state. Never have been. They are the defenders of the local common.

    As to defending against the state, just as with "separation of church and state", we go to the writings of the Founders beyond the exact Constitution. It helps if we go to their own explanations of the intent behind the Constitution, such as much that was written about the Second Amendment, and not to their otherwise personal opinions. It makes the Federalist Papers so credible. Which was the point of my "seperation of church and state", embraced by liberals, but otherwise not found in explanation of the First Amendment. Its that selective nonsense that liberals so often do.

    TO be clear, you are completely wrong about the Second Amendment, both literally, and when examining its underlying intent.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by H. Lee White View Post
    ...the security of a free state...
    This statement is plenary, covering all possible threats to said security, which then necessarily includes a tyrannical federal government.
    Again, you are adding words and meanings not contained in the second amendment. Why can you not admit that what you are doing is interpreting?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: NRA Newtown response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Again, you are adding words and meanings not contained in the second amendment. Why can you not admit that what you are doing is interpreting?
    At the end of the day the only thing that matters is that the Supreme Court interpreted the constitution that way. I believe you were just extolling your knowledge of constitutional law a few pages back, so perhaps you can tell us what legal effect that has on the second amendment?

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