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Thread: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    nothing needs refuting,

    the crap you posted does not support any additional gun laws

    hat some people want more gun laws doesn't establish they are needed-especially if the groups represent big government idiots or anti gun pillowheads like the Million Moron March (which was clinton astro-turf)

    and I guess you haven't figured out that Denying someone a gun from a FFL retail operation means nothing if the criminal is

    1) NOT prosecuted for PERJURY
    2) obtains a weapon from other sources


    Once again, you provide nothing but numbered opinions. That's sad.....

    Gun shows without background checks are the second leading source of guns used in criminal activities, if you stop that you eliminate the one of the biggest sources for criminals to get guns. That should not be that hard for anyone to reason out for themselves.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Once again, you provide nothing but numbered opinions. That's sad.....

    Gun shows without background checks are the second leading source of guns used in criminal activities, if you stop that you eliminate the one of the biggest sources for criminals to get guns. That should not be that hard for anyone to reason out for themselves.
    stop telling falsehoods I posted studies from the government saying that criminals got less than 1 percent of their guns from gun shows. You haven't posted squat

  3. #1053
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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    stop telling falsehoods I posted studies from the government saying that criminals got less than 1 percent of their guns from gun shows. You haven't posted squat
    Previously posted above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of trafficked guns per investigation." (p. xi)
    Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers," Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (June 2000)

    Close Gun Show Loophole, Facts and Statistics

    A primer for TurtleDude and others uniformed about the gun show loophole:

    "To date, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) has prevented nearly 1.8 million criminals and other prohibited purchasers from buying guns. The law also has a deterrent effect—prohibited purchasers are less likely to try to buy guns when they know comprehensive background check requirements are in place.

    Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not “engaged in the business” of selling firearms to sell guns without a license—and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.

    Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the “private sales” described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.

    Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole."

    Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
    ...............
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #1054
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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Major fail on your part

    you cite some anti gun nut case organization

    they cite the ATF

    but what does the cite to the ATF say


    Page Not Found


    We are sorry, but the page you requested wasn’t found at this location.

    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has created a brand new ATF website, and it’s possible that the page you were looking for has been moved. If you think that you have reached this page due to an error on our part, please let us know.

    Please take a moment to explore our new site to learn more about ATF and its programs.

    You can see what has changed in the past few weeks, read all the latest news and current events, learn more about ATF’s role in the Firearms and Explosives industries, and what we’re doing to enforce our Governments laws and regulations.


    You have also ignored the obvious

    when you go to buy a gun from a retail (FFL) dealer you fill out a form called a 4473

    AFTER YOU FILL THE FORM OUT AND SIGN IT UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY, the dealer's agent or clerk calls NICS (the agency that does the BGCs)

    BUT IF YOU ADMIT ON THE FORM that you are a

    1) fugitive
    2) felon
    3) illegal alien
    4) under indictment
    5) dishonorably discharged
    6) an addict
    7) adjudicated mentally incompetent
    8) Lautenberg addition-domestic violence MISDEMEANOR (added many years after the 68 GCA)

    or you don't live in the state (for a handgun)
    or you are under age (18 for long arm, 21 for handgun)

    THEY DON'T EVEN CALL THE NICS, they say SORRY YOU ARE PROHIBITED


    ONCE they call NICS you have AFFIRMED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY that you have testified that you are of legal age, residence and NOT an PROHIBITED PERSON

    from WIKI

    he Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS, although prosecutions are rare in the absence of another felony committed with the gun purchased.

    NOW if very few people are actually prosecuted for LYING on the form they really have not been stopped from obtaining a weapon-it merely means they couldn't get a weapon from that store

    there is NO EVIDENCE that this law has prevented FELONS or those with DV misdemeanors (a more recent addition due to Frank "the Dinosaur" Lautenberg's amendment which stripped thousands of cops and soldiers of their jobs for misdemeanor DV pleas they made years ago without being told that one day it could cost them their jobs)

    so the 1.8 million you are trumpeting needs to be seen in the true light

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but what does the cite to the ATF say
    This includes a link to the actual study by the ATF:

    "In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) published the "Following the Gun" report.[18] The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation."
    Gun shows in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This includes a link to the actual study by the ATF:

    "In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) published the "Following the Gun" report.[18] The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation."
    Gun shows in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    they cited their own investigations

    sorry that doesn't cut it

    they did the same thing under clinton

    they had an illegal FORWARD TRACE operation where they would go into gun stores and demand to review records to see who bought "assault weapons" WHETHER THERE WAS ANY REASON TO so they could tell congress that MOST OF THEIR TRACES OF WEAPONS INVOLVED "ASSAULT WEAPONS"

    Now tell me what relevance there is to saying that BGC's stopped "1.3 million" from buying guns if almost none were prosecuted

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    they cited their own investigations

    sorry that doesn't cut it


    First you wanted proof of actual ATF numbers, and when they are provided, you say they don't count because they are ATF numbers. Do you realize how asinine that sounds?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    First you wanted proof of actual ATF numbers, and when they are provided, you say they don't count because they are ATF numbers. Do you realize how asinine that sounds?
    what is asinine is braying about how those "background checks stopped 1.3 million" when its really a lie when you look at the end result

    capiche?

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what is asinine is braying about how those "background checks stopped 1.3 million" when its really a lie when you look at the end result

    capiche?

    Thanks Mr. TurtleDude without a lick of proof, ever! I will go with the ATF numbers. Capiche?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: NRA Newtown response [W:818]

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thanks Mr. TurtleDude without a lick of proof, ever! I will go with the ATF numbers. Capiche?
    I) I posted a government study demonstrating LESS THAN .7 percent (that is less than 7 in a thousand) convicted criminals stated they got a firearm from a GUN SHOW-most got them from friends and family or from the black market

    II) you constantly talk about 1.3 million people BEING DENIED a retail sale but you never deal with the fact that very FEW are ever prosecuted for PERJURY

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