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Thread: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Oh contraire mon frere.
    A rifle has a much better sight plane and accuracy goes up considerably even in close quarters, a plus if children are in the mix. SWAT teams don't enter a building with pistols. few homes have halls as long as a school's or rooms as big as classrooms, and a headshot on a hostage taker is better done with a rifle than pistol, especially your 44 mag. Big difference between your house and a school, (I am with you on home defense pistols), if pistols were better in schools SWAT would go in with them.

    Next the proper term for the M-4 is M4, no dash and even more accurately you have an M4orgery, as the M4 is capable of select fire. (I should call my AK an AKish )

    Last most savvy 'gun' owners know there are a literal turd ton of aftermarket sleeves that can upscale the grip area of damn near any pistol made. No need to use one of the least handy pistols in home defense unless the larger caliber makes you feel better. (I am willing to bet you have not fired that handcannon in a dark room before- blinding comes to my mind.)
    Ok, tech talk aside, my point is that a pistol vs an "assault" weapon is not the equivalent of bringing a spoon to a knife fight.

    You can talk all the technical details and try to confuse that point all you want. But I disagree with some of your points and you are attempting to confuse the real point. You are trying to compare average citizens to a SWAT team. You have introduced "headshot to a hostage taker" which I don't see where you got that from because if it a hostage taker, teachers would of course wait until police arrive instead of taking actions themselves.

    Technically I own a Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S.

    Before purchasing my pistol, I looked at various makes/models/calibers and grip options. Sub compacts I can only grip with 2 fingers instead of 3 and the trigger falls on pad between the second and third joint of my trigger finger. The most comfortable sub-compact to date has been a .40 Baratta sub-compact. Of non-sub compacts, I looked at many different manufactures and in .40, .45, and 10 mm. In each and every case, the trigger would naturally end up somewhere on the third joint of my trigger finger, regardless of grips used. And in many cases my pinky finger would only be partially, not fully on the grip. I knew the DE fit naturally and comfortably without any modification, so although I wanted a 10 mm or a .40, I went back to .44. I simply got tired of searching and having to mod other handguns when an un-modded one would do just fine and I never found a suitable combination of gun/grip mods.

    How "handy" it is depends entirely on the individual.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Ok, tech talk aside, my point is that a pistol vs an "assault" weapon is not the equivalent of bringing a spoon to a knife fight.

    You can talk all the technical details and try to confuse that point all you want. But I disagree with some of your points and you are attempting to confuse the real point. You are trying to compare average citizens to a SWAT team. You have introduced "headshot to a hostage taker" which I don't see where you got that from because if it a hostage taker, teachers would of course wait until police arrive instead of taking actions themselves.

    Technically I own a Bushmaster Model XM15-E2S.

    Before purchasing my pistol, I looked at various makes/models/calibers and grip options. Sub compacts I can only grip with 2 fingers instead of 3 and the trigger falls on pad between the second and third joint of my trigger finger. The most comfortable sub-compact to date has been a .40 Baratta sub-compact. Of non-sub compacts, I looked at many different manufactures and in .40, .45, and 10 mm. In each and every case, the trigger would naturally end up somewhere on the third joint of my trigger finger, regardless of grips used. And in many cases my pinky finger would only be partially, not fully on the grip. I knew the DE fit naturally and comfortably without any modification, so although I wanted a 10 mm or a .40, I went back to .44. I simply got tired of searching and having to mod other handguns when an un-modded one would do just fine and I never found a suitable combination of gun/grip mods.

    How "handy" it is depends entirely on the individual.
    I never said spoon or knife, so quit tring to type words into my posts.

    I was pointing out the technical points those with a bit of know understand and is why certain weapons work better than other in certain environments.

    When it comes to pistols if you have a bit more know you would have known the pistol grip sleeves do what you want, are easy to install, difficult to mess up and bring your finger to the proper point better than a naked pistol... FYI those with a bit of know also know the 7 Ps... Proper Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance. I can use waaaay too much finger in almost every 'snyper' rifle I have gotten behind, however proper practice has my finger automatically going to the porper placement- called muscle memory among the ruck humpers.

    My hands are not big but I CAN put way too much finger into the trigger guard of my full sized XD45. training and practice till I have to really work at it to get it wrong. Perhaps you should read a bit on John Farnham.

    next they make extended magazines both that hold extra rounds and those that are just 'filler' so no more pinky dangle. The sub compacts are not made for home defense so why bring them into this? They are for concealment, something your hand cannon would never do.

    Again proper tool for the job. Doesn't take a lot of technical to see that. You seemed to have gone out of your way to make the 44mag the only possible weapon to use.

    Once again I'd ask... have you ever fired your home defense cannon in a dark room?

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I never said spoon or knife, so quit tring to type words into my posts.

    I was pointing out the technical points those with a bit of know understand and is why certain weapons work better than other in certain environments.

    When it comes to pistols if you have a bit more know you would have known the pistol grip sleeves do what you want, are easy to install, difficult to mess up and bring your finger to the proper point better than a naked pistol... FYI those with a bit of know also know the 7 Ps... Proper Prior Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance. I can use waaaay too much finger in almost every 'snyper' rifle I have gotten behind, however proper practice has my finger automatically going to the porper placement- called muscle memory among the ruck humpers.

    My hands are not big but I CAN put way too much finger into the trigger guard of my full sized XD45. training and practice till I have to really work at it to get it wrong. Perhaps you should read a bit on John Farnham.

    next they make extended magazines both that hold extra rounds and those that are just 'filler' so no more pinky dangle. The sub compacts are not made for home defense so why bring them into this? They are for concealment, something your hand cannon would never do.

    Again proper tool for the job. Doesn't take a lot of technical to see that. You seemed to have gone out of your way to make the 44mag the only possible weapon to use.

    Once again I'd ask... have you ever fired your home defense cannon in a dark room?
    The spoon/knife comment was in the post I was specifically responding to and created the post that you responded to. If you didn't read what I was responding to, how did you plan to keep your statement in context with what I was saying?

    Further, yes, a rifle, even a short barrel is going to have greater accuracy than a pistol. But that is not always a practical distinction. If you set a 2 inch group at 50 feet (except hallways, a very long shot inside a building) with a pistol, but set a 1/2 group with a rifle, is there actually a practical difference? I personally cannot set that type of grouping, but I can generally stay in the "black" of the target (approximately 6 inch radius) at 30 yards. Overlay that target with a human center of mass, you get a dead human. If you overlay it over an average human head, I would still hit in the head, just not necessarily a take-down shot. So for me, over approximately 20 yards, there starts to be a practical difference, depending on ammunition type.

    In any case, the assertion, made by another not necessarily you, that a pistol is not effective against an "assault" rifle and that the person with the rifle wins every times, is clearly a false statement.

    For teachers, what is the practicality of a pistol vs trying to lug around a rifle? If, with few exceptions there is no practical difference in the ability to adequately respond to an armed aggressor, then go with portability and availability.

    There is a huge difference between your reference to a rifle trigger position under conditions where you actually have time to think and check, vs in the dark at night with an intruder in your house with fear and adrenaline pumping up you system. Hey, if we could all afford the amount of practice to ensure that kind of muscle memory under those conditions, great. Some of us cannot afford that kind of practice, even with a .22.

    As I stated, I tried different things. And my intent was to purchase a .40 or 10 mm, but after over a year of searching and trying as many combos as I could, I got frustrated and just made a decision.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by TaraAnne View Post
    I was talking about the teacher that brought the gun to the school. I find it funny you think that a pistol could defend children against a ar-15 you must not a have a clue about fire power. For years we have heard the same thing from the gun nuts when a shooting occurs. Get more bigger and better guns. Tell me for years this has been preached and we still have these problems so clearly more guns are not the solution.
    At the ranges most engagements are likely to occur at within gun free buildings handguns are fine. The goal is not to have one-on-one engagements. The goal is for the targeting problem to be very difficult. We do not want one obvious person to have a concealed carry permit. We want dozens of school workers to be trained and armed for their self defense.

    How many guns were present at Sandy Hook?
    More guns in the hands of the right people, the school workers, might have been the right answer. If you goal is to prevent mass killings then more guns carried by more people is a good answer. If you have some other goal then you will also likely have some other answer.
    Last edited by Misterveritis; 12-24-12 at 04:34 PM.

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    At the ranges most engagements are likely to occur at within gun free buildings handguns are fine. The goal is not to have one-on-one engagements. The goal is for the targeting problem to be very difficult. We do not want one obvious person to have a concealed carry permit. we want dozens of school workers to be trained and armed for their self defense.

    How many guns were present at Sandy Hook?
    More guns in the hands of the right people, the school workers, might have been the right answer. If you goal is to prevent mass killings then more guns carried by more people is a good answer. If you have some other goal then you will also likely have some other answer.
    Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with Tara.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with Tara.
    Is she the only one who reads my posts?

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Is she the only one who reads my posts?
    Point taken.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    At the ranges most engagements are likely to occur at within gun free buildings handguns are fine. The goal is not to have one-on-one engagements. The goal is for the targeting problem to be very difficult. We do not want one obvious person to have a concealed carry permit. We want dozens of school workers to be trained and armed for their self defense.

    How many guns were present at Sandy Hook?
    More guns in the hands of the right people, the school workers, might have been the right answer. If you goal is to prevent mass killings then more guns carried by more people is a good answer. If you have some other goal then you will also likely have some other answer.
    So then explain Columbine and the Arizona shooting both had guns in the right hand and nothing happen. I do recall in Arizona it was an unarmed man that tackled the gun man. Seem to me you aree grasping at air trying to prove a point. Just like anytime there is a shooting the NRA and the rights answer is more guns. Talk about beating your head against the wall

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by TaraAnne View Post
    So then explain Columbine and the Arizona shooting both had guns in the right hand and nothing happen. I do recall in Arizona it was an unarmed man that tackled the gun man. Seem to me you aree grasping at air trying to prove a point. Just like anytime there is a shooting the NRA and the rights answer is more guns. Talk about beating your head against the wall
    How can you point to a few instances and use those few as proof that guns do not help? When someone holds back a crazie for a few seconds cant that maybe save someone else's life?

    I assume most these massacres don't involve the crazies being decked out head to toe in armor. But even if so, look at the North Hollywood Bank shootout. Zero deaths and 1 of the gunmen killed before the cops got a high power weapon. It seems like your argument is "Not everyone is a CoD hero incarnated into the real world, getting 50 headshots on someone with a Juggernaut Perk" When you cant deny the fact that guns help keep crazies with guns at bay.

    "I seen 2 videos of a bully knocking some geeks out so self defense doesn't work" is the translation I'm getting.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    How can you point to a few instances and use those few as proof that guns do not help? When someone holds back a crazie for a few seconds cant that maybe save someone else's life?

    I assume most these massacres don't involve the crazies being decked out head to toe in armor. But even if so, look at the North Hollywood Bank shootout. Zero deaths and 1 of the gunmen killed before the cops got a high power weapon. It seems like your argument is "Not everyone is a CoD hero incarnated into the real world, getting 50 headshots on someone with a Juggernaut Perk" When you cant deny the fact that guns help keep crazies with guns at bay.

    "I seen 2 videos of a bully knocking some geeks out so self defense doesn't work" is the translation I'm getting.
    I pointed to two and you could only point to one so tell me how is your view any better. I could have named a number of events yet it is no use with Republicans they are hell bent on ruining this country either by God, Gun, or bankruptcy!

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