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Thread: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

  1. #121
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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Earlier I wrote, "Do you agree that the majority, if not all, of the mass murders in the last twenty years where guns were used have occurred in gun free zones?

    Do you believe in choice? Does a woman have a right to choose...life versus death for herself and her school children who may be murdered in a gun free zone?"

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I believe in the right to choose, not strawman arguments to push an agenda.
    Nice knee-jerk reaction. What part of my statement above do you believe to be a strawman argument?

    Do you agree that nearly all mass murders that have taken place in the last twenty years have occurred in gun free zones?

    Let the teacher decide before all the feel good, rather useless political posturing.
    This is more properly the role of local school boards. Before that can happen the gun free zone laws have to be rescinded.

    Again 'gun free' is a misnomer- the good guys had firearms in these areas,
    Really? How many armed people were there at Sandy Hook? I could find reference to only one armed person. Who were the others and what were they doing during the murders?

    what they didn't have was a good security system so they could act rather than react after the murders started.
    Begin with the assumption that a murder is always possible. What we want to do is cut back on the number of murders. A first shot will always be fired. It is what happens after the first shot that determines whether there is a murder or a mass killing.

    Tell me more about what you would want as a security system.

    I'd say you don't understand being armed.
    You may say anything you want. While I was in college I also worked in a police department. I was trained by the best shot in the department. After college I spent twenty years in the Army. We were occasionally armed as a minor part of that job.


    having a pistol in your hand guarantees nothing.
    I do not recall offering guarantees. Do you believe we all have a right to life? Do you believe that the state cannot take away our lives without due process? Do you believe we have a right to defend ourselves?

    this teacher would have to make a headshot on someone who already knows the adult must die first and is wearing body armor.
    Why do you assume there would only be one armed adult? Why do you assume that all mass killings have an assailant in full body armor? Why do you assume that someone being fired upon will not respond to the fires? And why do you assume that the teacher would stand alone? If all of the adults who were murdered had been armed do you believe there would have been 27 murders? If every adult fired just one round before being murdered do you believe the shooter could have finished his task in the ten minutes it took for more armed help to arrive? The shooter at Sandy Hook managed to kill between 2-3 people every minute. Wouldn't it have been far better to have reduced his killing rate?

    Better way to say what you mean is allowing a teacher the chance she/he can shoot a mass murderer in the head before the mass murderer shoots them.
    This is evidence of one-dimensional thinking. This does bring us back to a woman's right to choose. Should she choose a chance of living by concealed carry or certain death having been disarmed by liberal politicians who will not stand with her as she is murdered?

    I'd rather the school be hardened against entry, and professionals be armed and dedicated to security in place rather than a questionable few in number teachers in easy to access schools be the security. Again CCWs would be very rare and always at a disadvantage unless the schools are hardened.
    If you are a member of a school board you may get the opportunity to make such a decision. My preferences it to eliminate gun free zones and then allow the school boards to make their choices with a far wider range of options.

  2. #122
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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    It is a strawman argument because you are projecting your opinion as what others want. IF the teachers, school administrators, school boards want to have more CCWs in their schools then they know how to ask. Until then it is others pushing their agenda trying to use teachers as a cover.

    Believe me, teachers know how to organize and demand things, what they want are better secured doors, windows and classrooms.

    It is interesting you keep saying assume when the trends have been to the use of body armor and ARs. True the attacker could be attackers, not improving the odds for the teacher 'defending' her classroom. to not prepare for an attacker dressed in body armor is preparing to fail.

    Now what pistol would you have the CCW use? the concealable pistols on a smaller female frame are short barreled and short gripped, not the best to aim for headshots, the CCW is for fending off attackers on the street, not body armored AR carrying in classrooms. I've watched waaay too many CCW holders using their subcompact in practical shooting. (yes there are some who can but their round count in training is pretty high)

    You see pushing your agenda as the solution, but the vast majority of teachers don't so how many teachers will arm and train-up?
    Last edited by notquiteright; 12-27-12 at 11:10 AM.

  3. #123
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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    That's the problem though, the people might very well have good intentions, but the gun has no such plan and it is just as happy in a childs hand or in anyones who picks it up. Those good intentions don't bring back the dead from accidental shooting or maniac murderers. That is what was found and THAT is the reason for the laws. A gun is more likely to be the cause of injuries than be used to prevent them. I don't know about you but I like it that way. Feeling that it is "shoot" or "be shot" all the time is not a way to live.
    I tend to not be in favor or zero tolerance policies and laws. People are humans who sometimes make well-intentioned mistakes. I think it was also Thomas Jefferson who said, roughly paraphrased, that strict adherence to the law is the greatest threat to democracy.

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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    It is a strawman argument because you are projecting your opinion as what others want. IF the teachers, school administrators, school boards want to have more CCWs in their schools then they know how to ask. Until then it is others pushing their agenda trying to use teachers as a cover.
    That is not a strawman. It has a name. It is...are you ready...an opinion. You are pushing your agenda. My agenda is superior. How do I know? We have an Amendment in the Bill of Rights where the US government acknowledges our right to defend ourselves first from each other but also from the government.

    Allowing local school boards to decide seems to be the perfect solution. My only mandatory requirement is that we uniformly rescind all gun free zone laws. They violate my right to life because they prevent me from defending myself from others.

    Believe me, teachers know how to organize and demand things, what they want are better secured doors, windows and classrooms.
    Apparently you do not speak for all teachers as more than 200 teachers in Utah are getting concealed carry permits and the law allows teachers and other school workers to carry a weapon, even when in the presence of our precious crumb-crunchers.

    It is interesting you keep saying assume when the trends have been to the use of body armor and ARs. True the attacker could be attackers, not improving the odds for the teacher 'defending' her classroom. to not prepare for an attacker dressed in body armor is preparing to fail.
    I heard today on a local radio station that since 1955 all mass killings except one have occurred in gun free zones. I believe the definition of a mass killing is four or more killings by one person at one place and one time. I believe it.

    Do you believe it is more important or less important for people to defend themselves against an attacker with body armor? Does the presence of body armor mean that you are against self defense? Given that the majority of privately owned weapons are semiautomatic is it a surprise to you that attackers arm themselves with the most common weapon?

    Now what pistol would you have the CCW use? the concealable pistols on a smaller female frame are short barreled and short gripped, not the best to aim for headshots, the CCW is for fending off attackers on the street, not body armored AR carrying in classrooms. I've watched waaay too many CCW holders using their subcompact in practical shooting. (yes there are some who can but their round count in training is pretty high)
    I have given my recommendations to individuals I know based on their intended use. I recommend using the largest caliber weapon that the individual can capably handle.

    You see pushing your agenda as the solution, but the vast majority of teachers don't so how many teachers will arm and train-up?
    Do you think it matters how many teachers will defend themselves versus huddling in the corner waiting their turn to be shot and killed? Just because you have the right to self defense does not make it mandatory that you do so. Please feel free to cower in the corner while your assailant pumps round after round into your body.

    What is it about my agenda that upsets you? After the gun free zone laws are rescinded my agenda is simply to allow every local school board to decide what is appropriate for their schools.

  5. #125
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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    You put the cart before your horse and call it new and improved.

    I'd say let the teachers, principles and school administrators decide they want the CCW allowed in their schools. You are calling your agenda a cure when to the people DIRECTLY involved it is a non-starter.

    Let the teachers decide.

    What part of that are you not understanding, you don't work at the school let those who do decide....

  6. #126
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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    You put the cart before your horse and call it new and improved.

    I'd say let the teachers, principles and school administrators decide they want the CCW allowed in their schools. You are calling your agenda a cure when to the people DIRECTLY involved it is a non-starter.

    Let the teachers decide.

    What part of that are you not understanding, you don't work at the school let those who do decide....
    You say let the teachers decide but right now legally they cant. Remove the restriction and maybe some of them will decide? Already we had 1 lady break the law because she decided she rather have a gun at school. One person is good enough for me. Worked for Rosa Parks when she broke the law.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Firearm Found Inside Mpls. School Staff Memberís Locker

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    You put the cart before your horse and call it new and improved.

    I'd say let the teachers, principles and school administrators decide they want the CCW allowed in their schools. You are calling your agenda a cure when to the people DIRECTLY involved it is a non-starter.

    Let the teachers decide.

    What part of that are you not understanding, you don't work at the school let those who do decide....
    You do realize that you only speak for yourself?

    In Utah on the first day more than 200 teachers signed up for concealed carry training.

    It seems that you have it all wrong. Teachers, being human recognize their right to self defense in a dangerous world.

    What will you do when those teachers yo are claiming to speak for apply for concealed carry permits?

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