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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    I am not trying to minimize, nor advocate, torture. Refer to my other posts in this thread how I call the use of those methods "unfortunate." I am merely pointing out that shock media sells, and shock media wants to paint a picture that the CIA and the military at large have hordes of muslim civilians strung up in secret torture camps throughout the world. They also have sold this idea that "torture" doesn't work. If by "torture," you mean "systematically beating someone until they talk," you would be correct.... but that is not how advanced interrogation works.
    Have you no conscience? You accept without question the mistreatment of another human. "Condone" might be the right word, but I'm not sure.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You use the term "more devastating" than physical torture. Ok, so what is the devastation, exactly? Mental stress? Captivity? Capacity for lasting emotional scars? All of these things can be applied to our justice system when carried out to the letter of the law.

    I do agree that this debate is all about who we are. I just don't think we can naively go into it thinking the world is a kind and gentle place is all.
    Whatever you want to call it, that it is done to another person without permission or due process is what's wrong.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Sure. No one cares about family members and friends being tortured. Why would they? Everyone should expect a little torture, especially when not guilty of anything. I'm sure you'd gladly offer up your loved ones.

    And now you digress into emotional blathering... having trouble countering facts? Of course you are...

    Silliness doesn't make your argument any more sound.
    Pot meet... umm... meet... ?
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  4. #74
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As I understand it, serious life shattering scars.

    And torture isn't justice. Justice is when someone is convicted. Tired. Charged and judged with evidence and rebuttal. Torture has not worked that way. Which is we have from time to time tortured the wrong people.

    Also, be moral and just isn't kind and gentle. The two are not one and the same.
    When I said "justice," I was specifically referring to the US Justice System, not the concept of justice itself. Is incarceration "just"? Isn't it just kidnapping, only done by "legitimate" institutions? And doesn't captivity tend create "life shattering scars"? How about solitary confinement? How about rape? All of those are found in our justice system. Is going to jail considered "torture"?
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Have you no conscience? You accept without question the mistreatment of another human. "Condone" might be the right word, but I'm not sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Whatever you want to call it, that it is done to another person without permission or due process is what's wrong.
    Define "due process".

    You seem to be quick to judge me, but it looks like you haven't a clue where I am coming from or what the basis of my argument is.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  6. #76
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well.... Information was gathered from persons subject to EIT, that at one point made up about 3/4ths' of what we knew about AQ senior leadership, and was turned into intelligence. This occurred after other interrogation methods on the same individuals (who were trained in resistance) had failed - after EIT, one of the subjects said that EIT helped him to cooperate because Allah only demands his soldiers resist up until the point at which they no longer can, and then they are free to cooperate in order to make their situation as best for them as they can.

    From perhaps the only person on this forum (that I have seen willing to discuss it) who is actually an eyewitness to real torture (whether or not scaring someone with a loud sound falls under that category, I'll leave to another discussion): the worst thing about torture is that it works.
    While I will agree that torture works in some cases, I find it hard to believe that you have been personally afforded the counter-intelligence that is substantiating THREE QUARTERS "of what we know about Al Queda's senior leadership" was obtained through, new name for it, wait for it . . . Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.

    I had to rewrite your following sentence without the parenthesis to see exactly what you were claiming here:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    "From perhaps the only person on this forum who is actually an eyewitness to real torture[,] the worst thing about torture is that it works."
    Man, when you were a PFC you were God. Oh yeah, I thought they were Enhanced Interrogation Techniques? If I combine this, with your "3/4ths" claim . . . along with all your other war stories . . . I start to get doubts in my mind about almost everything you say.

    If what you say is true . . . then we, as in, The United States, has a major problem. You went to Iraq right after your school for your occupational specialty. You were just a few moments away from Boot. And apparently, by your words, we allow untrained Marines to witness torture. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised after Abu Ghraib . . . or, you are exaggerating. I remember when torture was rare, very secret, conducted by professionals and not witnessed by PFC's in the Marine Corps. Yet you talk about it openly right here on the Internets. So, we must have a problem, or you do.

    That is neither here nor there . . . I will just take note of this claim, like I have your past claims. I also take note of something my Dad told me a long time ago . . . once you start lying, it takes a lot of work, time, and energy to keep track of the lies . . . because they eventually multiply until you can't remember the old lies.

    Clerk typists who have a sideline as Intelligence Officer . . . Hah! That's OK, I have a nephew who is a Dental Tech, and to hear him, he was Rambo during his teeth cleanings. You probably know him.
    Last edited by Davo The Mavo; 12-21-12 at 07:11 PM.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    And now you digress into emotional blathering... having trouble countering facts? Of course you are...



    Pot meet... umm... meet... ?
    Nope. But torturing is an emotional matter for all involved. That's the point I'm trying to get you to see. People don't take the torturng of their loved ones in any clinical way, which is why act works to encourage people who would not their wise join, join.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    When I said "justice," I was specifically referring to the US Justice System, not the concept of justice itself. Is incarceration "just"? Isn't it just kidnapping, only done by "legitimate" institutions? And doesn't captivity tend create "life shattering scars"? How about solitary confinement? How about rape? All of those are found in our justice system. Is going to jail considered "torture"?
    It s just because of the process, the egalitarian ethical and moral process. If the process becomes soiled, say by corruption, it becomes unjust ( even in our system). So it cannot be compared to torturing. Ones an apple and the other s a tree frog.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nope. But torturing is an emotional matter for all involved. That's the point I'm trying to get you to see. People don't take the torturng of their loved ones in any clinical way, which is why act works to encourage people who would not their wise join, join.
    All of this is an emotional matter for all involved and that is why focusing on the emotion is pointless...

    The point is that people are trying to make torture out to be a recruiting tool (as a means to be anti USA) to people that are recruited for far less reasons such as just being present where they don't want you to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Define "due process".

    You seem to be quick to judge me, but it looks like you haven't a clue where I am coming from or what the basis of my argument is.
    there is only one definition of Due Process... if you don't know it you shouldn't be debating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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