Page 7 of 48 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 472

Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

  1. #61
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    If we use the same definition of torture as broadly applied to the military/CIA, you could claim that the police torture their interrogation "victims," and that every time you step foot in a court room you are subjecting yourself to torture.

    It's true that some of the methods utilized in the past cross the boundary of physical action, but not all interrogation methods involve so-called "torture."
    That's nonsense. The effort to try and minimalize torture is shameful.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #62
    better late than pregnant
    Gonzo Rodeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:03 PM
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,131

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's nonsense. The effort to try and minimalize torture is shameful.
    I am not trying to minimize, nor advocate, torture. Refer to my other posts in this thread how I call the use of those methods "unfortunate." I am merely pointing out that shock media sells, and shock media wants to paint a picture that the CIA and the military at large have hordes of muslim civilians strung up in secret torture camps throughout the world. They also have sold this idea that "torture" doesn't work. If by "torture," you mean "systematically beating someone until they talk," you would be correct.... but that is not how advanced interrogation works.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  3. #63
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    I am not trying to minimize, nor advocate, torture. Refer to my other posts in this thread how I call the use of those methods "unfortunate." I am merely pointing out that shock media sells, and shock media wants to paint a picture that the CIA and the military at large have hordes of muslim civilians strung up in secret torture camps throughout the world. They also have sold this idea that "torture" doesn't work. If by "torture," you mean "systematically beating someone until they talk," you would be correct.... but that is not how advanced interrogation works.
    What you write is in and of itself an exaggeration. There doesn't need to be hordes for it to be a problem and have an effect, a negative effect. I accept that you know it was wrong, but it isn't something that becomes meaningless if we show the numbers weren't to the level of hordes. The fact is, we did, let others do it for us, and then tried to excuse it. That is enough to paint us with the torture brush.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #64
    better late than pregnant
    Gonzo Rodeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:03 PM
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,131

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What you write is in and of itself an exaggeration. There doesn't need to be hordes for it to be a problem and have an effect, a negative effect. I accept that you know it was wrong, but it isn't something that becomes meaningless if we show the numbers weren't to the level of hordes. The fact is, we did, let others do it for us, and then tried to excuse it. That is enough to paint us with the torture brush.
    Which advances us back to my initial contribution to the thread - unfortunately, enhanced interrogation techniques do, in fact, work. That's why they got used.

    Even more unfortunate, everyone in the world uses them. Governments would use them on their own citizens if they thought they could get away with it (and some do). We thought we could get away with it, and when we didn't, the cry of "foul" went up. It's no secret that governments rarely if ever apply their own laws unto themselves. Any government. Those in power will always think themselves beyond the law because it takes force to wield power over others, and those with the force to wield are those in power.

    The US isn't singularly bad in the world for having and using interrogation methods beyond what is "allowed" at your local police station. We are just singularly called out for it because that's what sells newspapers.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  5. #65
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Which advances us back to my initial contribution to the thread - unfortunately, enhanced interrogation techniques do, in fact, work. That's why they got used.

    Even more unfortunate, everyone in the world uses them. Governments would use them on their own citizens if they thought they could get away with it (and some do). We thought we could get away with it, and when we didn't, the cry of "foul" went up. It's no secret that governments rarely if ever apply their own laws unto themselves. Any government. Those in power will always think themselves beyond the law because it takes force to wield power over others, and those with the force to wield are those in power.

    The US isn't singularly bad in the world for having and using interrogation methods beyond what is "allowed" at your local police station. We are just singularly called out for it because that's what sells newspapers.
    It is one thing to SAY they work. It is another thing to prove they work. All the literature says they work real well for confessions, but actual information is often unreliable. And we have verifiable examples of us using unreliable intel (see al Libi). We also have a body of evidence showing other techniques are much more effective.

    I'm also not convinced all the world tortures. Perhaps those who we know torture are not the kinds of governments and people we should be emulating. Having a moral center isn't easy, nor should it be, but having values , morals and standards means we don't take the easy route, especially against an enemy that has no real way to defeat us, no need to short cut more effective measures. At the end of the day, this is about who we are.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #66
    better late than pregnant
    Gonzo Rodeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:03 PM
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,131

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is one thing to SAY they work. It is another thing to prove they work. All the literature says they work real well for confessions, but actual information is often unreliable. And we have verifiable examples of us using unreliable intel (see al Libi). We also have a body of evidence showing other techniques are much more effective.

    I'm also not convinced all the world tortures. Perhaps those who we know torture are not the kinds of governments and people we should be emulating. Having a moral center isn't easy, nor should it be, but having values , morals and standards means we don't take the easy route, especially against an enemy that has no real way to defeat us, no need to short cut more effective measures. At the end of the day, this is about who we are.
    I tend to agree with you about the values and morals. But there is a case to be made for timely intelligence and certain, ah, "questionable" methods used to extract it. Again though, we have to ask ourselves if a timely resolution to a time-sensitive operation is more for the sake of the citizenry or for the sake of politics.

    It is not true that all enhanced interrogation techniques breach the definition of torture. It is also not true to say that none of them do. But how we define "torture" itself is often a moving goalpost. If making someone believe they are about to die is torture, that can be accomplished with mere words alone. If sleep deprivation is considered torture, certain job markets in the US would apply due to the availability or lack thereof of jobs in a "normal" 9-5 setting (I know someone right now who is working nights at a restaurant and early mornings at a coffee shop, due to lack of anything else she is qualified for... is the job market "torturing" her?). If putting someone under any kind of duress is considered torture, then most police actions are torturous. If putting someone in solitary confinement is considered torture (or just confining them, period), then our prison system executes systematic torture.

    It can be a clear cut case by definition when people are beaten or mutilated, and indeed those cases rarely yield anything beyond the first words the victim thinks might make it stop, but take the example of waterboarding. There is no physical harm done, but the subject does undergo a great deal of mental and emotional stress. Well, what level of "mental stress" is considered torturous? Until someone breaks and willingly gives up information? Well, that just means that it works and we have an ethical argument for if the ends justify the means. But if we set the limit at "lasting psychological harm," then we should never arrest anyone ever again, as that can be a traumatic experience for an individual, as well as an undefinable limit to be able to legislate into our moral code. Is spanking a child "lasting psychological harm"? What about raising your voice? What about the potential damage done to a fragile ego by merely explaining how they might be wrong?
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  7. #67
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    I tend to agree with you about the values and morals. But there is a case to be made for timely intelligence and certain, ah, "questionable" methods used to extract it. Again though, we have to ask ourselves if a timely resolution to a time-sensitive operation is more for the sake of the citizenry or for the sake of politics.

    It is not true that all enhanced interrogation techniques breach the definition of torture. It is also not true to say that none of them do. But how we define "torture" itself is often a moving goalpost. If making someone believe they are about to die is torture, that can be accomplished with mere words alone. If sleep deprivation is considered torture, certain job markets in the US would apply due to the availability or lack thereof of jobs in a "normal" 9-5 setting (I know someone right now who is working nights at a restaurant and early mornings at a coffee shop, due to lack of anything else she is qualified for... is the job market "torturing" her?). If putting someone under any kind of duress is considered torture, then most police actions are torturous. If putting someone in solitary confinement is considered torture (or just confining them, period), then our prison system executes systematic torture.

    It can be a clear cut case by definition when people are beaten or mutilated, and indeed those cases rarely yield anything beyond the first words the victim thinks might make it stop, but take the example of waterboarding. There is no physical harm done, but the subject does undergo a great deal of mental and emotional stress. Well, what level of "mental stress" is considered torturous? Until someone breaks and willingly gives up information? Well, that just means that it works and we have an ethical argument for if the ends justify the means. But if we set the limit at "lasting psychological harm," then we should never arrest anyone ever again, as that can be a traumatic experience for an individual, as well as an undefinable limit to be able to legislate into our moral code. Is spanking a child "lasting psychological harm"? What about raising your voice? What about the potential damage done to a fragile ego by merely explaining how they might be wrong?
    Not so many years ago weatherboarding was clearly defined as torture. I suggest that the ones making NEW definitions have largely been those who want to use torture. There is a difference in a largely voluntary sleep deprivation, and what interrogators use. I'm sure they know the difference as well. Rumsfeld make similar comments about positing, and yet someone died largely due to the positing in Afghanistan.

    In short, I don't think we really have a definition problem. And I believe I once read a CIA Manuel describing these techniques as more devasting to the individual than physical torture. If this is true, then we've found a way to be more brutal and harmful and excuse it easier. Again, as you agree, this is about who we are.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #68
    better late than pregnant
    Gonzo Rodeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Here
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:03 PM
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,131

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not so many years ago weatherboarding was clearly defined as torture. I suggest that the ones making NEW definitions have largely been those who want to use torture. There is a difference in a largely voluntary sleep deprivation, and what interrogators use. I'm sure they know the difference as well. Rumsfeld make similar comments about positing, and yet someone died largely due to the positing in Afghanistan.

    In short, I don't think we really have a definition problem. And I believe I once read a CIA Manuel describing these techniques as more devasting to the individual than physical torture. If this is true, then we've found a way to be more brutal and harmful and excuse it easier. Again, as you agree, this is about who we are.
    You use the term "more devastating" than physical torture. Ok, so what is the devastation, exactly? Mental stress? Captivity? Capacity for lasting emotional scars? All of these things can be applied to our justice system when carried out to the letter of the law.

    I do agree that this debate is all about who we are. I just don't think we can naively go into it thinking the world is a kind and gentle place is all.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  9. #69
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You use the term "more devastating" than physical torture. Ok, so what is the devastation, exactly? Mental stress? Captivity? Capacity for lasting emotional scars? All of these things can be applied to our justice system when carried out to the letter of the law.

    I do agree that this debate is all about who we are. I just don't think we can naively go into it thinking the world is a kind and gentle place is all.
    As I understand it, serious life shattering scars.

    And torture isn't justice. Justice is when someone is convicted. Tired. Charged and judged with evidence and rebuttal. Torture has not worked that way. Which is we have from time to time tortured the wrong people.

    Also, be moral and just isn't kind and gentle. The two are not one and the same.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 12-21-12 at 03:46 PM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #70
    Uncanny
    Paschendale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New York City
    Last Seen
    03-31-16 @ 04:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    12,510

    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    I don't really care if torture is effective. It's evil. And we are evil if we employ it. If we become evil to fight evil, then we have lost. Sacrificing the things that make us different from our enemy destroys us even more effectively than any weapons they could ever use against us. In the last decade, we have become more like the people Al Qaeda and their ilk want us to be. That's a victory for them, not for us, no matter how many of them we kill.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

Page 7 of 48 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •