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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Hatfields... but that could have been a typo now that I see where the keys are.

    They could use anything... being in Saudi Arabia was enough to galvanize an entire terror organization against us.

    Torture? Just an excuse.
    Sure. No one cares about family members and friends being tortured. Why would they? Everyone should expect a little torture, especially when not guilty of anything. I'm sure you'd gladly offer up your loved ones.


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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, that is a pretty big dishonest unprovable you have there...I don't think anyone has ever said that other interrogation techniques don't work as well, but as for some of the information that came to us about the courier, that came directly through EIT, nothing else as reported by the people that were in the damned room. Now, three people ever had waterboarding done to them, three. It is a fact that we found out who the courier was through EIT, and you are saying what? That we could have gotten the same information by serving hot chocolate, and asking pretty please? Prove that.
    J, I've seen nothing objective that shows that torture got us anything. I know you think because someone you want to believe said they did that it must be true. But willingness to believe is not objective evidence.

    And no where did I or anyone else say anything about serving hot chocolate. Silliness doesn't make your argument any more sound.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    So, apparently three senators are upset that a Hollywood movie is less than 100% factually accurate. In other news, one M. Mouse is revealed to be a cartoon rodent and dinosaurs can't really be cloned from DNA locked in amber for millions of years.

    Really? Is this what members of Congress are drawing a salary for doing?
    In the defense of the radical right they do believe that the flintstones was a documentary about prehistoric times.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Intelligence was gathered from a person who was subject to EIT. That is the closest positive claim that can safely be made a bout the effectiveness of EIT as an interrogation tool in this case. Anything beyond that is based on guesses.
    Well.... Information was gathered from persons subject to EIT, that at one point made up about 3/4ths' of what we knew about AQ senior leadership, and was turned into intelligence. This occurred after other interrogation methods on the same individuals (who were trained in resistance) had failed - after EIT, one of the subjects said that EIT helped him to cooperate because Allah only demands his soldiers resist up until the point at which they no longer can, and then they are free to cooperate in order to make their situation as best for them as they can.

    From perhaps the only person on this forum (that I have seen willing to discuss it) who is actually an eyewitness to real torture (whether or not scaring someone with a loud sound falls under that category, I'll leave to another discussion): the worst thing about torture is that it works.

    Four separate CIA directors from both administrations have testified in favor of the incredible wealth of information that came to us through the enhanced interrogation program. We know that the information gleaned helped stop major terrorist attacks, we know that it made us more effective against AQ, and yes, thanks to Wikileaks we know Know that it helped lead to OBL.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Not exactly, no. What I said was that when two politicians who disagree on almost everything find common ground, it is time to sit up and take notice.
    If two politicans who disagree on almost everything find common ground on something they typically disagree with, it is time to sit up and take notice.

    If two politicians who disagree on almost everything, but almost always agree on a specific issue, find common ground on that specific issue....it's kind of par for the course.

    If you tell me Mitch McConnell and Joe Lieberman agreed on Stimulus I may sit up and take notice.

    if you tell me Mitch McConnell and Joe Lieberman agreed on something regarding the War on Terror I'd probably go "yeah, so?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Intelligence was gathered from a person who was subject to EIT.
    Which is reasonable. Whether it would've been gathered in other forms, whether or not it was right or wrong to gather it in such a way, whether or not it was of dire importance or not, etc are all things we simply can't know (and to be perfectly frank SHOULDN'T know. IET was utilized in the process of gaining intelligence within the string that ultimately landed Bin Laden. Beyond that, there's question marks.

    My basic thing though was the incongruity of people seemingly dismissing a politicians statements regarding the "beyond that" portion becuase he's a politician with political reasons to state it...and then promoting hte statements regarding "beyond that" of another politician despite that person ALSO being a politician with political reasons to state it.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    EIT? You mean torture. I hate the way military types like to mask the worst behaviour, policies or strategies by creating acronyms and euphemisms to confuse the public as to what they are really discussing.

    EIT = torture
    extraordinary rendition = kidnapping
    collateral damage = killing civilians
    black site = secret prison and torture facility
    sleep management = sleep deprivation
    multilateral diplomacy = waging war without saying so

    War by Euphemism
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    So, apparently three senators are upset that a Hollywood movie is less than 100% factually accurate. In other news, one M. Mouse is revealed to be a cartoon rodent and dinosaurs can't really be cloned from DNA locked in amber for millions of years.

    Really? Is this what members of Congress are drawing a salary for doing?
    I think the most serious objection is that it perpetuates the myth that torture works and that torture led to the capture of Osama bin Ladin. Since these movies grow in the popular culture of easily manipulated citizenry as more accurate than history, the false imagery of torture as useful is reinforced. All they had to do was try GWShiiteForBrains and his cadre of perps for War Crimes and Human Rights violations and we would not be involved in this charade. Just a note. The reason KSM is being tried by a Military tribunal is because any evidence obtained by torture is not submissible in a civilian courtroom and the charges would probably have to be dismissed. Ain't that a crock of shiites. He's guilty as sin, but also entitled to justice.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I know. I post links to texts from professionals in the field like those used by the USMC, the CIA, etc.

    You might want to look at the career of Hanns Scharff. An extremely effective Nazi interrogator who elicited secrets from allied prisoners of war. We all know that the Nazis were free to resort to most any sort of despicable behavior and torture they wished. So his methods were culled from the best of the best of those.
    It's interesting that you mention Scharff, because he pretty much invented the good cop/bad cop routine. His method was to make the subject think he was the subject's best friend in captivity. He was notable for not using physical means in interrogation. And you are absolutely correct - we did take the best parts of his technique and adapt them into our own.

    However, the professionals I was referring to are, of course, psychologists; the field I was referring to was Psychology. The common thread between syndromes like Stockholm Syndrome and Battered Person Syndrome is traumatic bonding. The mind's psychological defenses kick in when presented with traumatic situations (not necessarily just physical or emotional abuse), and typical responses include identification with those who appear to be in charge, switching of allegiance, and even the feeling that one's captors are omniscient (especially when exposed to physical violence or the threat of physical violence... but not just in those cases).

    Again, though, that's why I said "unfortunately". The methods do, in fact, work, but the basis for their operation are quite unfortunate.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    allow me to finish the sentence for you:
    It really is unfortunate that "advanced interrogation methods" actually work to motivate the opposition
    What motivates the opposition is propaganda. For those already against us, their minds are made up. How our actions are presented to those on the fence... that is a job for propaganda. If you think I am wrong, then how does AQ have a single supporter in the world when they like to kidnap and behead journalists, or strap bombs onto women and children and slay civilians en masse? Wouldn't that motivate the opposition?

    Motivation is always a matter of which information one has access to, and how that information is delivered.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I know. I post links to texts from professionals in the field like those used by the USMC, the CIA, etc.
    If we use the same definition of torture as broadly applied to the military/CIA, you could claim that the police torture their interrogation "victims," and that every time you step foot in a court room you are subjecting yourself to torture.

    It's true that some of the methods utilized in the past cross the boundary of physical action, but not all interrogation methods involve so-called "torture."
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    After watching The Hurt Locker, and seeing her on Colbert, I respected Katheryn Bigelow.

    Not anymore. She has sold her soul to the devil, and become yet another Hollywood mouthpiece advancing government propaganda. A pity, for sure.

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