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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Doubt whatever you want. You gave me links, and I told you what they meant. You didn't want to accept that, because you only got interested in this issue when it became a stick to beat the Bush Administration with. Did you know anything about interrogations before that? Well, ****, you don't know anything now, so don't answer that. I'll rephrase: did you have any interest in it before then?

    Again:We agree that the least intrusive methods are the most desirable, most controllable, and most effective. I mean, I know that, you've been told that, so you go with it. Cool. Great. But then you take that and run with it, and decide that more intrusive methods are horrible, never work, are ineffective, etc. And that's just wrong. I'm here to tell you, but I can see you'll never agree. But it's fine that we'll never agree, because you obviously have no role in any of this, so it really doesn't matter.
    And I answered you.

    I did not mention Bush, you did. But he does deserve to be beat. He broke the law and tried to rewrite history with a debate that never was.

    I never used the word "never." I said ineffective and have explained for whet the word means. I repeat that only a fool pretends that false absolutes make ineffective effective. This debate is about torture. Nothing else. Present something other than your flawed logic.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And I answered you.

    I did not mention Bush, you did. But he does deserve to be beat. He broke the law and tried to rewrite history with a debate that never was.

    I never used the word "never." I said ineffective and have explained for whet the word means. I repeat that only a fool pretends that false absolutes make ineffective effective. This debate is about torture. Nothing else. Present something other than your flawed logic.
    You don't what many of these words mean, apparently. And you certainly don't know anything about interrogations or debriefings, but I understand why you do: it's political. I just don't care: enhanced methods are effective sometimes. That's the fact. It really doesn't matter what you think about it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You don't what many of these words mean, apparently. And you certainly don't know anything about interrogations or debriefings, but I understand why you do: it's political. I just don't care: enhanced methods are effective sometimes. That's the fact. It really doesn't matter what you think about it.
    Getting a right answer once a decade is not effective. Getting the information 90% of the time is.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Getting a right answer once a decade is not effective. Getting the information 90% of the time is.
    Making up statistics is even more effective. You're not an interrogator. You're not a debriefer. You've never worked with one. You've probably never even met one, that you know of. The only things you've read about it are from newspaper articles and the Huffington Post.

    Yet you're arguing with someone who has done this, who has read books about the subject, taken courses, and read the pubs. Someone who hasn't ever voted for a Republican. And yet you still argue, not only in the face of that, but in the face of logic as far as increasingly invasive/severe/extreme methods being useful when less are not. You continue to believe that when one method that usually succeeds fails, sometimes a method that usually fails can then succeed. You refuse to accept explanations for the quotes that you wrongfully and ignorantly believed supported your argument.

    You're basically like talking to a brick wall. You formed your opinion on this sometime during the Bush Administration, because of the Bush Administration, and now your uninformed opinion has ossified. I can't help you, but as I've mentioned, I'm glad that I really don't have to, as you don't really have a say in any of this. If you were trained in HUMINT, you might have a say...but then you'd be informed and wouldn't think as you do, so...
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Making up statistics is even more effective. You're not an interrogator. You're not a debriefer. You've never worked with one. You've probably never even met one, that you know of. The only things you've read about it are from newspaper articles and the Huffington Post.

    Yet you're arguing with someone who has done this, who has read books about the subject, taken courses, and read the pubs. Someone who hasn't ever voted for a Republican. And yet you still argue, not only in the face of that, but in the face of logic as far as increasingly invasive/severe/extreme methods being useful when less are not. You continue to believe that when one method that usually succeeds fails, sometimes a method that usually fails can then succeed. You refuse to accept explanations for the quotes that you wrongfully and ignorantly believed supported your argument.

    You're basically like talking to a brick wall. You formed your opinion on this sometime during the Bush Administration, because of the Bush Administration, and now your uninformed opinion has ossified. I can't help you, but as I've mentioned, I'm glad that I really don't have to, as you don't really have a say in any of this. If you were trained in HUMINT, you might have a say...but then you'd be informed and wouldn't think as you do, so...
    I actually do know one, and am well read, but that is besides the point. Nor do I have any reason to accept you are who you say you are. Nor would it matter if you were. You could very well have a flawed view. This is something is well documented as ineffective, and in your argument against that view your making a logical error.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I actually do know one, and am well read, but that is besides the point. Nor do I have any reason to accept you are who you say you are. Nor would it matter if you were. You could very well have a flawed view. This is something is well documented as ineffective, and in your argument against that view your making a logical error.
    Okay, good luck in life making things up as you go.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Okay, good luck in life making things up as you go.
    Haven't done that. Are you projecting?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What was 9/11? a polite nudge?
    No, it was an act of war.

    However, critical thinking strongly suggests that 19 arabs with box cutters were NOT the conspirators. Close examination and critical thinking make the Official Narrative quite impossible.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by DiavoTheMiavo View Post
    Let me precede this post by first stating I really respect your stand on this issue. I believe you are honest with your words and are deeply committed to what you see as a clear "Black & White" issue. I get it completely, and admire what has been, for the most part, the honorable way you have tried to send your message. However, life isn't always "Black & White" and bringing morals into it seems a little unfair. When I stood up and protested the Iraq War, some people believed they had the power to label me less-than American, or even a traitor . . . I was not a fan of that either. Morals, mores, and rules for life are infused into people by experience. I am a firm believer in people being products of their environment. What is moral to you may not be moral to someone else . . . yet you have allowed yourself to be the judge and jury on who is moral and who is not when it concerns the "torture" question.

    Life isn't always "Black & White" and sometimes things get really dirty. Abu Ghraib ruined the American myth that we never torture and opened the door to all the criticism that has followed (deservedly). Some folks here have used the "Ticking time-bomb" scenario . . . I won't do that, but I will say this; torture works . . . I know this, because it has been used since men started fighting other men and needed to know information about each other. If it did not work . . . men would have stopped using it. I am a product of my American experience, and I can honestly say if it came down to saving lives for the greater good in a life and death situation (where I get to be judge and jury) . . . I'd torture a Mother Farker because I would feel I was morally obligated. I remember when torture was rare . . . conducted by professionals, and NO ONE knew about it . . . I'd be fine to go back to those days.
    Thank you for a most civil and even-handed post.

    I'm an amateur psychologist, fascinated by human behavior. A seminal book on this subject is Philip Zimbardo's "The Lucifer Effect", originally published regarding the Stanford Prison Experiments of the 70's. It was republished after the Abu Ghraib affair. Zimbardo was called in, I think by Congress, on the Abu Ghraib debacle.

    Some humans enjoy mistreating others, and believe it or not, those being mistreated often get into the role. Strange, but oh so human.

    Yes, I'm aware of shades of gray, and black and white, but I find the argument that torture is a valuable tool for whatever they say to be utter sophistry.

    And in the end, assaulting other humans is either right or wrong. You make the call for yourself, and I'll make it for myself.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And hahahahahah Henry David is a truther? Oh that's beautiful!
    Glad you like it!

    Why don't you come over to the CT section and we can talk about it?

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