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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J. nothing is 100%. You can be a % and still be ineffective. Noted a method not torture is 90% effective. That is an effective method. Something that is 1%, 10%, 20% cannot be called effective. Such a percentage would be ineffective. He also suggests something no one has stated, that there is a circumstance in which it is effective. No such circumstance has ever been identified by anyone to my knowledge. Not when it comes to information gathering. Now if we were talking confessions? Well, there is much showing you will get a confession from a large percentage of people tortured. But no identified circumstance. Sometimes just dumb luck. But you wouldn't want to depend on luck for effectiveness.

    BTW, in this case the word effective means working as desired. What is desired is to good information most if not all the time. When it doesn't work that way, it is ineffective.

    Dance man dance! Now we'll get a dissertation in how many thousands shades of grey your statements involve..... Priceless.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Dance man dance! Now we'll get a dissertation in how many thousands shades of grey your statements involve..... Priceless.
    J, it doesn't help you that you don't know the difference between what is being argued and what is a dance. It is reason number two why we have such trouble. On an idiot deals in absolutes. So no one says something is either 0 or 100%. Both extremes are never what we're talking about when we use the word ineffective. Take any book on torture, and when they say ineffective, they don't go with an absolute. Again, only an idiot does that, and no one should have to state that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I tend to ignore red herrings. What does any of that have to do with what I said? Nothing.
    We are speaking of matters of psychology, specifically the psychology involved with captivity and, shall we say, mental abuse. There are proven psychological defenses to situations like the ones we are talking about, i.e. what you call "torture."

    So, why do you think battered women stay with their husbands? This question is COMPLETELY relevant.


    Two words: False confessions. Quite common in interrogation rooms. Far more common with 'mental anguish'.
    Three words: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. Some of the best minds on the planet, enlisted by the richest government ever seen with nearly unlimited resources and coupled with literally decades of research. Yeah, they have absolutely zero grounds in reality.

    (emoticon silly face)
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J, it doesn't help you that you don't know the difference between what is being argued and what is a dance. It is reason number two why we have such trouble. On an idiot deals in absolutes. So no one says something is either 0 or 100%. Both extremes are never what we're talking about when we use the word ineffective. Take any book on torture, and when they say ineffective, they don't go with an absolute. Again, only an idiot does that, and no one should have to state that.

    Maybe you have forgotten, but the Obama administration even admitted that 'waterboarding' led to some of the intel that led them to OBL....

    Leon Panetta, the CIA director, has confirmed that controversial "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding yielded some of the intelligence information that ultimately led to Osama bin Laden.

    Osama bin Laden killed: CIA admits waterboarding yielded vital information - Telegraph
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    It appears that what is beyond YOUR comprehension is the difference between right and wrong. It appears that your moral standard is what some government bureaucrat tells you. A sad state of affairs.
    Let me precede this post by first stating I really respect your stand on this issue. I believe you are honest with your words and are deeply committed to what you see as a clear "Black & White" issue. I get it completely, and admire what has been, for the most part, the honorable way you have tried to send your message. However, life isn't always "Black & White" and bringing morals into it seems a little unfair. When I stood up and protested the Iraq War, some people believed they had the power to label me less-than American, or even a traitor . . . I was not a fan of that either. Morals, mores, and rules for life are infused into people by experience. I am a firm believer in people being products of their environment. What is moral to you may not be moral to someone else . . . yet you have allowed yourself to be the judge and jury on who is moral and who is not when it concerns the "torture" question.

    Life isn't always "Black & White" and sometimes things get really dirty. Abu Ghraib ruined the American myth that we never torture and opened the door to all the criticism that has followed (deservedly). Some folks here have used the "Ticking time-bomb" scenario . . . I won't do that, but I will say this; torture works . . . I know this, because it has been used since men started fighting other men and needed to know information about each other. If it did not work . . . men would have stopped using it. I am a product of my American experience, and I can honestly say if it came down to saving lives for the greater good in a life and death situation (where I get to be judge and jury) . . . I'd torture a Mother Farker because I would feel I was morally obligated. I remember when torture was rare . . . conducted by professionals, and NO ONE knew about it . . . I'd be fine to go back to those days.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    [QUOTE=Boo Radley;1061331229]No, those are not the only three options.[.quote]

    Yes, literally they are. That's just simple logic.

    Read my rebuttal closer. And no, I'm not missing say the say anything part. I'm addressing it by pointing out that saying what is factually correct is not the same as saying anything.
    What in the ****?

    The point is torture is ineffective. Think spectrum and not either/or and you'll understand the argument better.
    I understand it, I've worked in the field. You learned about it from newspaper articles to have a rock to throw at Bush. Big difference.

    They do if you understand what is being argued.
    You don't understand interrogations.

    Better options should be the focus and not a desire to use something so problematic as torture that has serious issues with getting misinformation (which is what makes it ineffective).
    Uhhh..what desire? Better options are the focus. Did you think people were just opening up source operations via torture? Again: you don't know what you're talking about.

    It is to the point of the ticking time hypothetical some raise. They had it and didn't need to use torture.
    You don't know what you're talking about.

    This does not mean that they can be made to talk with stress methods.
    Wait, what? I thought you said they'd "say anything" under torture. Now you mean to say that they'd "say anything other than the truth"? What in the ****?

    Don't make a leap not stated. But 90% is a very high percentage, much better than any method should count on. Now, with the one in four, that person will eventually tell us something with torture, but most likely misinformation. Since we know we have acted on misinformation, we cannot argue our trained people know the difference. We know, for a fact, that we acted on misinformation we got from someone we tortured (al Libi).
    What? Dude, go to DSDC or something.

    No method is based on the right time and place. It's measured by what is most likely to happen. Something that gets you more misinformation than actual information is considered ineffective. Something that causes more problems than good is ineffective. This is why the literature is so insistent that torture is ineffective.
    lol no. Methods are based upon time, place, personalities, and stressors. That's it. Take a course, man. The literature is not insistent, by the way: you're lying.

    No, the literature is clear that it is ineffective, which is why we have not used it prior to Bush and his people, who went against the experts, including those in the military.
    Stop lying, Boo. No it's not clear. Have you ever take a course in interrogation? Read a DIA pam? No, you haven't. You just don't know. But you seem to be arguing very vehemently for political purposes, and I think it's hilarious.

    We agree that the least intrusive methods are the most desirable, most controllable, and most effective. I mean, I know that, you've been told that, so you go with it. Cool. Great. But then you take that and run with it, and decide that more intrusive methods are horrible, never work, are ineffective, etc. And that's just wrong. I'm here to tell you, but I can see you'll never agree.

    And that's fine, you're not in charge of anything, thankfully, so the intelligence community will continue to work to be as effective as it can be in reality, not in Boo World.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    And hahahahahah Henry David is a truther? Oh that's beautiful!
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    [QUOTE=OldWorldOrder;1061333189]
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, those are not the only three options.[.quote]

    Yes, literally they are. That's just simple logic.



    What in the ****?



    I understand it, I've worked in the field. You learned about it from newspaper articles to have a rock to throw at Bush. Big difference.



    You don't understand interrogations.



    Uhhh..what desire? Better options are the focus. Did you think people were just opening up source operations via torture? Again: you don't know what you're talking about.



    You don't know what you're talking about.



    Wait, what? I thought you said they'd "say anything" under torture. Now you mean to say that they'd "say anything other than the truth"? What in the ****?



    What? Dude, go to DSDC or something.



    lol no. Methods are based upon time, place, personalities, and stressors. That's it. Take a course, man. The literature is not insistent, by the way: you're lying.



    Stop lying, Boo. No it's not clear. Have you ever take a course in interrogation? Read a DIA pam? No, you haven't. You just don't know. But you seem to be arguing very vehemently for political purposes, and I think it's hilarious.

    We agree that the least intrusive methods are the most desirable, most controllable, and most effective. I mean, I know that, you've been told that, so you go with it. Cool. Great. But then you take that and run with it, and decide that more intrusive methods are horrible, never work, are ineffective, etc. And that's just wrong. I'm here to tell you, but I can see you'll never agree.

    And that's fine, you're not in charge of anything, thankfully, so the intelligence community will continue to work to be as effective as it can be in reality, not in Boo World.
    I doubt your claim of qualifications, but I know you do not understand the argument or read closely what is said. As I gave you links, how about you provide something other than silliness.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Maybe you have forgotten, but the Obama administration even admitted that 'waterboarding' led to some of the intel that led them to OBL....
    Which has been contradicted and shown false. You too willingly believe people who have reason to skew and ignore object evidence all too much.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    I doubt your claim of qualifications, but I know you do not understand the argument or read closely what is said. As I gave you links, how about you provide something other than silliness.
    Doubt whatever you want. You gave me links, and I told you what they meant. You didn't want to accept that, because you only got interested in this issue when it became a stick to beat the Bush Administration with. Did you know anything about interrogations before that? Well, ****, you don't know anything now, so don't answer that. I'll rephrase: did you have any interest in it before then?

    Again:We agree that the least intrusive methods are the most desirable, most controllable, and most effective. I mean, I know that, you've been told that, so you go with it. Cool. Great. But then you take that and run with it, and decide that more intrusive methods are horrible, never work, are ineffective, etc. And that's just wrong. I'm here to tell you, but I can see you'll never agree. But it's fine that we'll never agree, because you obviously have no role in any of this, so it really doesn't matter.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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