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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    It is a well known fact that under duress, most humans will tell their torturer whatever it is he wants to hear.
    And if that information is VERIFIABLE - success (or worse torture, if they lied, and then success). Works every time.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    And if that information is VERIFIABLE - success (or worse torture, if they lied, and then success). Works every time.
    I commend you for not watching TV in 15 years! With your present views, it would be fascinating to know how you might have turned out if you HAD been watching all those years ago, listening to the sophistry and lies of Powell, Rummy, Dick & Dubya.

    As to your point about verifiable, I'm wondering exactly what you mean? Are you suggesting that you would torture a person to obtain information that you already had?

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    As to your point about verifiable, I'm wondering exactly what you mean? Are you suggesting that you would torture a person to obtain information that you already had?
    See, this is why people are clueless on this subject! Let me explain:


    Torture for VERIFIABLE INFORMATION works. If the person gives one a false answer, one finds out and the torture gets worse. Eventually, every time, the person gives the information that is being looked for, it is verified as true, and the torture stops; thus, its effectiveness (and morality) in a ticking time bomb scenario.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    See, this is why people are clueless on this subject! Let me explain:


    Torture for VERIFIABLE INFORMATION works. If the person gives one a false answer, one finds out and the torture gets worse. Eventually, every time, the person gives the information that is being looked for, it is verified as true, and the torture stops; thus, its effectiveness (and morality) in a ticking time bomb scenario.
    And yet, we can document misinformation having been given and used. We cannot not verify any actual information we either didn't already have or got from other sources. Verifying is not often easy, and if it can be verified, we don't need to torture.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I commend you for not watching TV in 15 years!
    I lived in a rural African village without electricity or running water for two years.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And yet, we can document misinformation having been given and used. We cannot not verify any actual information we either didn't already have or got from other sources. Verifying is not often easy, and if it can be verified, we don't need to torture.
    I'm not talking about Curveball and the rest of that CIA/classified mess. Forget about the government crap, and trying to prove 'secret' stuff was revealed etc - impossible.

    I'm talking about raw, plain, torture for VERIFIABLE INFORMATION. Check the information given, go to next step (worse torture or stop).


    It works.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I'm not talking about Curveball and the rest of that CIA/classified mess. Forget about the government crap, and trying to prove 'secret' stuff was revealed etc - impossible.

    I'm talking about raw, plain, torture for VERIFIABLE INFORMATION. Check the information given, go to next step (worse torture or stop).


    It works.
    Again, at any level, if I can verify it, I don't need torture to get it. And, nothing stops the person from lying again. Nor do we really even know if the person we're torturing knows the information you want. Too much to go wrong. And the literature on the subject says this, as does the military. There is just no real support for your position.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, at any level, if I can verify it, I don't need torture to get it.
    Wrong. If a guy has the combination to a ticking time bomb - it's time to get that verifiable information.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    And if that information is VERIFIABLE - success (or worse torture, if they lied, and then success). Works every time.
    1) If you can verify it then it can be uncovered using other means. Which is what really what happened with Bin Laden [for some semblance of returning to the original subject of this thread].
    2) Define “work”, because if by “work” you mean “always provides the answer you went looking for” no. The verification process does weed out the numerous false positives that torture is so prone to generating, even as it fails digging out information.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    2) Define “work”, because if by “work” you mean “always provides the answer you went looking for” no. The verification process does weed out the numerous false positives that torture is so prone to generating, even as it fails digging out information.
    I have already presented one real-world case where torture for verifiable information worked. I can provide numerous other examples.

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