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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    This is very simple:

    Torture for verifiable information works. That is a fact. Torturing someone for verifiable information during a ticking time bomb scenario (which the aftermath of 911 was) is a moral imperative.
    I have seen on TV and read in several articles, at least 3 different people "in the field" who disagree with you.

    It is a well known fact that under duress, most humans will tell their torturer whatever it is he wants to hear.

    Respectful and nonviolent interrogation is much more likely to discover information.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    What I find amazing is that some people can claim:

    1. Terrorists have no option and are pushed into targetting civilians.
    2. The US was not pushed into torturing the top three terrorists in custody for verifiable information during the aftermath of 9/11.

    Both, together, in the same intellectual mush of a so-called personal philosophy.


    This is what happens when people don't really understand 'relative morality'.
    OK, now I get it--11 years after the fact you still believe the Official Conspiracy Theory regarding the events of 11 September. Yes, you have bought in, hook, line and sinker.

    My bet is you have box sets of '24'.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    This what happens when you let a political agenda guide your logic and arguments, kids. Just say no.
    Precisely the case with yourself! You still live in the World According to Dick & Dubya. That explains it all. The only question remaining is whether that situation results from partisan bias or just pure gullibility.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Wrong. A broke clock is ineffective. It's correct twice a day, but it is ineffective at keeping time. You seem to not understand what is being said or what the word ineffective means. I'm also still convinced you haven't really read what is posted.
    No, a broken clock is effective twice a day. Where is Henry David to call out your semantic sophistry. You only have three options. I laid them out to you. Since you admit that torture sometimes works, you agree that it's sometimes effective. You just don't want to admit it, probably for political reasons.

    What you seem to be missing in the "you'll say anything to stop the torture" bit is that the first things you'll say to stop the torture are going to be truthful things, if you know them. Why would you even skip over that? Why would you pretend that, in the rush to blurt out anything you think the torturer wants to hear, you'd skip over the actual critical pieces of information that you have?

    Again: it's weird. And these things you quoted? They don't contradict what I'm saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    A former FBI man who interrogated an al Qaeda leader said Wednesday extreme techniques used by the Bush administration were "ineffective, slow and unreliable" and caused the prisoner to stop talking.

    Ex-FBI Interrogator: Torture "Ineffective" - CBS News

    Moreover, Zimbardo told LiveScience that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence. Compared with police settings, in which detectives build social rapport and often get confessions without physical force, secret interrogation squads can alienate prisoners and elicit unreliable information, he said.

    (For example, a Libyan detainee linked to al-Qaida falsely revealed under torture that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq — a key reason for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Allen said.)
    I already told you that building rapport was a much better option. That's what Zimbardo is saying. That doesn't mean that it's 100% effective, though, and when it's not, other options can be effective.

    Study: U.S. Torture Techniques Unethical, Ineffective | LiveScience

    But it's also true that "realists," whether liberal or conservative, have a tendency to accept, all too eagerly, fictitious accounts of effective torture carried out by someone else.

    By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them."
    All he's saying is he didn't use it. Okay, thanks. Neither did I. What does that have to do with anything, though?

    Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."
    So 9 out of 10. Okay. So there's 1 out of ten. Or 4, based upon his later number. So them? They'll tell you anything. Including the truth. That's kinda the first thing, because they don't need to make it up: it's right there for them to blurt out.

    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

    After a contentious closed-door vote, theSenate intelligence committee approved a long-awaitedreportThursday concluding that harsh interrogation measures used by theCIA did not produce significant intelligence breakthroughs, officials said.

    The 6,000-page document, which was not released to the public, was adopted by Democrats over the objections of most of the committee’s Republicans. The outcome reflects the level of partisan friction that continues to surround theCIA’s use of waterboarding and other severe interrogation techniques four years after they were banned.
    It might not have. Most interrogations don't. And then when you consider that a fraction of a percent of interrogations used advanced techniques, it's not really surprising, is it? But that doesn't mean it's not effective at the right time and place.
    Report finds harsh CIA interrogations ineffective - Washington Post

    Like I said, there are better sources in your library. Torture isn't new and has been well studied.
    Of course there are better sources in my library, I have access to SIPR and JWICS. Torture isn't new. And it's been well-studied. That's why we know it's useful and effective in certain situations.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    If I deprive you of sleep for say, three or four days straight.... and then threaten you with waterboarding or barking dogs or something really scary, until you answer my questions.... and for the first week of this I only ask you questions that I already know the answers to... are you telling me that your superhuman constitution wouldn't start to believe I am omnipotent, and that the only way to earn "good treatment" (what your or I would call "humane" or "normal") would be to continue telling the truth?

    You guys keep talking about broken clocks being right twice a day, but you ignore the fact that battered women don't leave their dirt-bag husbands for a reason.
    Did you see the movie Argo?

    Apparently the Iranians like to stage mock firing squad executions. They pull the trigger, but there is no round in the chamber. Yes, it causes fainting and the soiling of underwear, but that's about it.

    So that's where you're at, eh Gonzo.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Precisely the case with yourself! You still live in the World According to Dick & Dubya. That explains it all. The only question remaining is whether that situation results from partisan bias or just pure gullibility.
    Ummm...I voted for Harry Browne, John Kerry, and Obama twice. I'm a moderate that leans liberal. But I'm a neorealist when it comes to foreign policy. Hence why I can like Obama and like drone strikes, which, on the internet, seem to contradictory. In the real world, they're not. Just like not voting for Bush, ever, doesn't mean one can't support advanced interrogation techniques. Welcome to the real world, Henry David, have a seat.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Respectful and nonviolent interrogation is much more likely to discover information.
    lol

    Yes, this is true!

    This does not, mean, however, that torture is useless and ineffective, and it boggles my mind that you guys can't understand that simple concept. When 'respectful and nonviolent' interrogation fails, you still need to derive information, dude. That's when things that to get more 'disrespectful'.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ummm...I voted for Harry Browne, John Kerry, and Obama twice. I'm a moderate that leans liberal. But I'm a neorealist when it comes to foreign policy. Hence why I can like Obama and like drone strikes, which, on the internet, seem to contradictory. In the real world, they're not. Just like not voting for Bush, ever, doesn't mean one can't support advanced interrogation techniques. Welcome to the real world, Henry David, have a seat.
    Why thank you!

    Yes, I must stand corrected-- you merely POST as though you live in The World According to Dick & Dubya. I thought I was having flashbacks to 2003, hearing from Curveball's handler, or something.

    The only thing that impresses is your condoning torture and military aggression, and claiming to be a libertarian. I have known for years that labels and categories, especially regarding politics, are utterly misleading. In the end, it is a person's character and moral stances that define them.

    You have made it pefectly clear where you stand--on the side of torture and the fraud known as the Global War On Terror.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    No, a broken clock is effective twice a day. Where is Henry David to call out your semantic sophistry. You only have three options. I laid them out to you. Since you admit that torture sometimes works, you agree that it's sometimes effective. You just don't want to admit it, probably for political reasons.

    What you seem to be missing in the "you'll say anything to stop the torture" bit is that the first things you'll say to stop the torture are going to be truthful things, if you know them. Why would you even skip over that? Why would you pretend that, in the rush to blurt out anything you think the torturer wants to hear, you'd skip over the actual critical pieces of information that you have?
    No, those are not the only three options. Read my rebuttal closer. And no, I'm not missing say the say anything part. I'm addressing it by pointing out that saying what is factually correct is not the same as saying anything. The point is torture is ineffective. Think spectrum and not either/or and you'll understand the argument better.

    Again: it's weird. And these things you quoted? They don't contradict what I'm saying:
    They do if you understand what is being argued.

    I already told you that building rapport was a much better option. That's what Zimbardo is saying. That doesn't mean that it's 100% effective, though, and when it's not, other options can be effective.
    Better options should be the focus and not a desire to use something so problematic as torture that has serious issues with getting misinformation (which is what makes it ineffective).


    All he's saying is he didn't use it. Okay, thanks. Neither did I. What does that have to do with anything, though?
    It is to the point of the ticking time hypothetical some raise. They had it and didn't need to use torture.



    So 9 out of 10. Okay. So there's 1 out of ten. Or 4, based upon his later number. So them? They'll tell you anything. Including the truth. That's kinda the first thing, because they don't need to make it up: it's right there for them to blurt out.
    This does not mean that they can be made to talk with stress methods. Don't make a leap not stated. But 90% is a very high percentage, much better than any method should count on. Now, with the one in four, that person will eventually tell us something with torture, but most likely misinformation. Since we know we have acted on misinformation, we cannot argue our trained people know the difference. We know, for a fact, that we acted on misinformation we got from someone we tortured (al Libi).

    I
    t might not have. Most interrogations don't. And then when you consider that a fraction of a percent of interrogations used advanced techniques, it's not really surprising, is it? But that doesn't mean it's not effective at the right time and place.
    No method is based on the right time and place. It's measured by what is most likely to happen. Something that gets you more misinformation than actual information is considered ineffective. Something that causes more problems than good is ineffective. This is why the literature is so insistent that torture is ineffective.

    Of course there are better sources in my library, I have access to SIPR and JWICS. Torture isn't new. And it's been well-studied. That's why we know it's useful and effective in certain situations.
    No, the literature is clear that it is ineffective, which is why we have not used it prior to Bush and his people, who went against the experts, including those in the military.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    OK, now I get it--11 years after the fact you still believe the Official Conspiracy Theory regarding the events of 11 September. Yes, you have bought in, hook, line and sinker.

    My bet is you have box sets of '24'.
    First, yes, I buy the official story regarding 9/11. Second, I haven't owned a TV in ~15 years.

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