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Thread: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, we're not. Read what I wrote about effectiveness or lack there of. You can argue with someone f you don't know what was said.
    Either it's effective under certain circumstances or it's never effective. The two are mutually exclusive. God have mercy on your soul for not understanding basic logic.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Either it's effective under certain circumstances or it's never effective. The two are mutually exclusive. God have mercy on your soul for not understanding basic logic.
    That is false. Again, go back a read what was said. It's not "effective" in any situation, but that does not mean, much like a stopped clock, you won't occasionally get information. But that is regardless of situation.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That is false. Again, go back a read what was said. It's not "effective" in any situation, but that does not mean, much like a stopped clock, you won't occasionally get information. But that is regardless of situation.
    lol

    There's three options:

    #1- Always effective
    #2- Never effective
    #3- Sometimes effective, under the right circumstances.

    That's it. This isn't rocket surgery. I'll assume you don't believe #1 is an option. Who knows what you think about #2 vs #3; you haven't been able to figure it out yourself, I don't think, even though #2 is laughable on both the theoretical, logical level and on the practical, experiential level.

    Just so ****ing weird.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    This what happens when you let a political agenda guide your logic and arguments, kids. Just say no.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol

    There's three options:

    #1- Always effective
    #2- Never effective
    #3- Sometimes effective, under the right circumstances.

    That's it. This isn't rocket surgery. I'll assume you don't believe #1 is an option. Who knows what you think about #2 vs #3; you haven't been able to figure it out yourself, I don't think, even though #2 is laughable on both the theoretical, logical level and on the practical, experiential level.

    Just so ****ing weird.
    Wrong. A broke clock is ineffective. It's correct twice a day, but it is ineffective at keeping time. You seem to not understand what is being said or what the word ineffective means. I'm also still convinced you haven't really read what is posted.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    A former FBI man who interrogated an al Qaeda leader said Wednesday extreme techniques used by the Bush administration were "ineffective, slow and unreliable" and caused the prisoner to stop talking.

    Ex-FBI Interrogator: Torture "Ineffective" - CBS News

    Moreover, Zimbardo told LiveScience that torture is not an effective way to gather intelligence. Compared with police settings, in which detectives build social rapport and often get confessions without physical force, secret interrogation squads can alienate prisoners and elicit unreliable information, he said.

    (For example, a Libyan detainee linked to al-Qaida falsely revealed under torture that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq — a key reason for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Allen said.)

    Study: U.S. Torture Techniques Unethical, Ineffective | LiveScience

    But it's also true that "realists," whether liberal or conservative, have a tendency to accept, all too eagerly, fictitious accounts of effective torture carried out by someone else.

    By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them."

    (snip)

    Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

    After a contentious closed-door vote, theSenate intelligence committee approved a long-awaitedreportThursday concluding that harsh interrogation measures used by theCIA did not produce significant intelligence breakthroughs, officials said.

    The 6,000-page document, which was not released to the public, was adopted by Democrats over the objections of most of the committee’s Republicans. The outcome reflects the level of partisan friction that continues to surround theCIA’s use of waterboarding and other severe interrogation techniques four years after they were banned.

    Report finds harsh CIA interrogations ineffective - Washington Post

    Like I said, there are better sources in your library. Torture isn't new and has been well studied.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Torture, when defined as "the systematic infliction of pain to elicit a confession or divulge intelligence" is ineffective.

    Enhanced interrogation techniques, however, are effective, because they don't inflict pain to elicit a confession or gain intelligence. Even when pain is inflicted, we've evolved far beyond mere beating and demanding. There are far more insidious tricks in play than simply beating someone until they talk. Deep psychological tricks accompany every tactic used. And I have no idea if beating or the infliction of pain (in the traditional torture sense) are any part of the EIT handbook, but I do know a little of what is in there. And it does work.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Torture, when defined as "the systematic infliction of pain to elicit a confession or divulge intelligence" is ineffective.

    Enhanced interrogation techniques, however, are effective, because they don't inflict pain to elicit a confession or gain intelligence. Even when pain is inflicted, we've evolved far beyond mere beating and demanding. There are far more insidious tricks in play than simply beating someone until they talk. Deep psychological tricks accompany every tactic used. And I have no idea if beating or the infliction of pain (in the traditional torture sense) are any part of the EIT handbook, but I do know a little of what is in there. And it does work.
    Beat a person's feet with copper wires and they'll tell you they killed whomever you want them to have killed. Keep a person awake for 72 hours and they'll tell you where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. If the point is to make 'deep psychological tricks', whatever the **** that is, stop, you'll sing like a bird.

    You don't even have to beat the person or use 'deep psychological tricks'.

    Example: In California, many cases have come up where police intentionally 'coerce' various suspects/witnesses to testify against one specific suspect. This is done through insinuation of long prison terms. Many years after, we find out that suspect which got 25 years was actually innocent all along. No torture, no 'deep psychological tricks'.

    And yet.... confessions are still made and people are still innocently accused/convicted.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Beat a person's feet with copper wires and they'll tell you they killed whomever you want them to have killed. Keep a person awake for 72 hours and they'll tell you where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. If the point is to make 'deep psychological tricks', whatever the **** that is, stop, you'll sing like a bird.

    You don't even have to beat the person or use 'deep psychological tricks'.

    Example: In California, many cases have come up where police intentionally 'coerce' various suspects/witnesses to testify against one specific suspect. This is done through insinuation of long prison terms. Many years after, we find out that suspect which got 25 years was actually innocent all along. No torture, no 'deep psychological tricks'.

    And yet.... confessions are still made and people are still innocently accused/convicted.
    If I deprive you of sleep for say, three or four days straight.... and then threaten you with waterboarding or barking dogs or something really scary, until you answer my questions.... and for the first week of this I only ask you questions that I already know the answers to... are you telling me that your superhuman constitution wouldn't start to believe I am omnipotent, and that the only way to earn "good treatment" (what your or I would call "humane" or "normal") would be to continue telling the truth?

    You guys keep talking about broken clocks being right twice a day, but you ignore the fact that battered women don't leave their dirt-bag husbands for a reason.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    If I deprive you of sleep for say, three or four days straight.... and then threaten you with waterboarding or barking dogs or something really scary, until you answer my questions.... and for the first week of this I only ask you questions that I already know the answers to... are you telling me that your superhuman constitution wouldn't start to believe I am omnipotent, and that the only way to earn "good treatment" (what your or I would call "humane" or "normal") would be to continue telling
    the truth?
    Lol ... what? The point of my post is that if you did all those things: I'll tell you whatever it is you want to hear regardless of whether it's the truth or not. That salient point couldn't have been clearer. So, as it stands, the 'deep interrogation techniques' are reliable in that I'll tell you something - true, false, make belief - to make it stop. Not that they'll get the truth and nothing but the truth.

    Now please, tell me about the 24 style scenario where there is a nuclear bomb strapped with a clock counting down and we've just so happened to catch the guy who set it up 30 minutes before the bomb is set to go off. If it's good enough, I'll write a script and sell it to the writers of Criminal Minds. They tend to use corny make belief story lines like that these days.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-08-13 at 06:18 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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